Schwaggy P's Random Stuff

Schwaggy P

Well-Known Member
The Solvent Skunk project is moving along. Here are the top 10 females that expressed the structural requirements in the (Green Crack S1 x Granny Skunk)F1. I have also added Blue Cheese(Big Buddha) and Appalachian Super Skunk(Bodhi) to this table to also be pollinated by each of the 2 selected male (Green Crack S1 x Granny Skunk)F1. I will be pollinating a Green Crack S1 with these males also as insurance against these ladies being too far removed from the desirable GC traits. This way if I'm unhappy with the 10 selected females, I don't have to burn a whole other cycle just to restart a new approach to the project.
schwaggyskunks.jpg
The 2 males in their own space just flipped. I will pollinate 2 single branches of each female, each with one of these pollen donors. As the females develop and ripen, I will be able to quickly narrow down which females' F2 seeds will be popped to be used for the next step.
skunk males.jpg

Here is a table of mostly (H.A.OG x Black Triangle). I added a couple (Chocolate Covered Strawberries F2 x Black Triangle) to see how the male interacts with a different type of female (short, quicker flower,late purpling).
HAOGxBlackTri.jpg Black Tri.jpg
 

Schwaggy P

Well-Known Member
Couple weeks into flower and pulled out the ladies set to be pollinated by the Skunky D (Chem D x Skunky Brewster). Some of these have more than one copy in the tent.
skdladies2title copy.jpeg

Chem D​
chemd2.jpg

Chem'91JB​
jb.jpg
Chem'91skva​
skva.jpg

skdladies3.jpg

H.A.OG​
haog.jpg

Skunky Brewster #8​
skunky8.jpg

Skunky Brewster #7​
skunky7.jpg
 
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Dude74

Well-Known Member
Looking great as always @Schwaggy P :clap:

Could you please give us a little more information about flowering your males in the same bloom room as females? Or at least point me in the direction of that post you made about it?

I understand the clear tote thing (cant find that post anywhere) however do you do holes in the tote? Or just throw it in a sealed clear storage bin and open only for watering? Am I missing anything?

Just planning my future.....thanks in advancebongsmilie
 

Schwaggy P

Well-Known Member
Looking great as always @Schwaggy P :clap:

Could you please give us a little more information about flowering your males in the same bloom room as females? Or at least point me in the direction of that post you made about it?

I understand the clear tote thing (cant find that post anywhere) however do you do holes in the tote? Or just throw it in a sealed clear storage bin and open only for watering? Am I missing anything?

Just planning my future.....thanks in advancebongsmilie
Thanks!

I don't flower the males in the same room as the females. In my small batch pollen collection write-up, I wrote that in the absence of another space, you could use the tote to keep your male contained and collect the first couple sacs that open up to give you enough pollen for a single branch pollination in the same room with caution. I use this procedure for smaller batches of seeds with the male in a tote in another room. I just crack the lid on the tote for air exchange and open for watering and pollen collection.
You can get some pistils popping in the early flowering period while the reversal is taking place. You should see the production of male parts become all that develops. Here are some early shots in the reversal with some pistils
View attachment 4343426

If you're using up a valuable flowering spot, consider flowering her in a clear tote with splash over light or some other light source. That way if you can keep going with the reversal and if you later decide to abort, you didn't miss out on the flowering spot.
View attachment 4343427
This tote process is described more in depth here (first half applies, the second half is more for male plants).
For larger runs, I have small tents in another room to flower out the males in their own space. If you're going to just make some seeds for yourself, you can have success with the clear tote procedure (only need a few pollen sacs worth of pollen). If you wanted to have a male dumping pollen into mid/late bloom, you are better off figuring out a separate place for him.
male tent.jpg
 
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Psychonautic83

Well-Known Member
Short Answer:
Yes, you would get an increasing ratio of sativa expressions as you continue to backcross to the sativa. Recombination dynamics and how they relate to a specific trait (flowering time), is dependent on whether or not the alleles that influence this trait are subject to cross over. Also, the simple model assumes the alleles are independently assorted and not linked. If flowering time genetic material suffers recombination, then you will get offspring that don’t follow the assumed ratios you expect from the simple Punnett Square model of anchored alleles.

Long Answer:
To better understand how recombination would nuance our model, we would have to also take into account the main assumption in our Mendelian model, independent assortment. This concept embodies the assumption that every allele pair separates independently during gamete formation. For example, let’s assume our female is short/quick flower and our male is tall/long flower. We could assume an even contribution of each possible trait in the formation of gametes.

Independent assortment would assume that his tall height is not affected by his long flower time and these traits can be treated as two independent probable expressions that can be observed in progeny with an even distribution. This means that during meiosis, the gametes (pollen grains in the case of our male) could split and create evenly distributed genotypes with 25% distribution among them. The progeny when combined with mother gametes, would show recombinant genes due to independent assortment combinations.

What would happen if these two traits are actually located on the same chromosome and thus are linked such that they cannot “pass” independently of one another? In this case, our male with alleles that are linked such that all tall plants are also long flowering [AB] and all short plants are fast flowering [ab], could only create these two possible gametes to create new offspring. This linkage actually makes the Punnett Square easier to deal with, as we do not have to evaluate every possible combination since we are limited in the pairings.

So now that we understand that some traits could be linked on the same chromosome and do not necessarily exhibit [A1]independent assortment, we can see how recombination can further nuance this process. I assume the recombination you are asking about is the crossover recombination of linked traits as this provides a source of uncertainty.

View attachment 4344957

The process here is meiosis. Meiosis is a cell division process whereby the genetic contribution of a parent is “prepared” readying a gamete, or half of total genetic information for one new organism. The two halves of the parents will create one whole offspring during sexual reproduction.

You can see the recombination of the red/blue segments of the chromosomes that will produce recombinant gametes. When looking at the last column of gametes, realize that this means that the male pollen will have some ratio of these contributing genotypes. So for instance, each grain of pollen would have EITHER (AB) or (Ab) or (aB) or (ab). What percentage of pollen grains has either arrangement will depend on the recombination frequency. The frequency of this phenomenon is not set in stone for every instance, but you can use the results of your cross to attempt to establish this frequency.

Let’s assume you have a 20% recombination frequency. You would have pollen grains that exhibit 80% of parent genotypes (AB) and (ab). Assuming these occur with even distribution, 40% of pollen grains will have (AB) and 40% of pollen grains will have (ab). Now the recombinant possibilities are (Ab) and (aB) occurring with 20% frequency. Again, assuming even distribution, that means 10% of pollen grains have (Ab) and 10% have (aB). This would mean that the Punnett Square assumption of even distribution of all possible gamete permutations is no longer valid since we clearly have differing abundance of the possible genetic contributions owing to linked trait recombination frequency.

The assumptions of the independent assortment model (the original model that sparked your question) would assume the increased genetic contribution from the plant that is being backcrossed in a predictable ever-converging manner. This increase does not take into account any recombinant dynamic or linked traits, but is a solid start that can serve as a guide. It is possible to calculate the recombination frequency for further work by comparing the expected phenotype distribution and the observed distribution using some statistical tools. Either way, the at home breeder can still benefit from the more simplistic models and working the statistical probabilities in their favor through understanding, careful observation, and benchmarking parent plants to establish genotype for a few traits.
So, let's stick to simple for now :) I read somewhere that S1 is equivalent to F3? So selfing an F3 or an S2 would get an "F5"?

Is it worth backcrossing S1's? I've got this keeper that I'm clonally propagating right now...

Do you cure your trim before tumbling?
 

Schwaggy P

Well-Known Member
I read somewhere that S1 is equivalent to F3?
Similar in what regard? Is the question: Assuming I have just popped a pack of regular F1 seeds, will the keeper female reversed and selfed give you the same plant genetically as if I were to instead pick a male to pollinate the keeper female for F2, and then make new female/male selections from the F2 to then make F3?

If so, then the answer would be no, the S1 of the female would not be a genetic replica of the winning female selected from the F3. They may share similar traits coming from the same pool and suffering the same restrictions you’re placing to crown a keeper, but the genotype would not necessarily be the same.

So selfing an F3 or an S2 would get an "F5"?
This question would naturally follow from the assumption that all breeding is additive, such that any plants, regardless of strain, past breeding, etc., will always have a standardized level of predictability when getting to F3, S2, or any other generational stopping point. But, breeding and genetics in general is not a rigid predictable practice.

What you’re doing is really based in probabilities within the scope of a particular gene pool. What you start with and what you select to move on in any breeding program will be your biggest determinants. You would be better served to approach each breeding project as its own closed system of focus, since not all plant genotypes are standardized, instead of relative to other breeding projects.

If you have a pack of an F1 polyhybrid and select and move to the F3, you’ll still have far more variance (on average) than if you started with an inbred line (IBL) and bred two more generations (F3 equivalent). The breeding process seeks to reduce the possible genetic arrangements by selecting for traits that express in higher frequency. So while it would be difficult to make a comparison between two wholly different F3 projects, you can make comparisons within a project, “Hey, this F3 is more stable than the original F1”, but not “Hey, this Sundae Cookie Punch F3 is the same level of stability as that Skunk F3.”

Is it worth backcrossing S1's?
If you have a special lady you’d like to save you could make S1, S1BX, or BX. S1 are usually the easier of the options since it only requires one cycle of pollination, but you will end up with a higher rate of recessives since you are breeding exact genotypes (recessives only express when the corresponding recessive genes are present. Since you’re breeding it to itself, all of the recessives are present).

Successive selfing generations and selfed BXs can help you refine your favorite expressions of your keeper.

The BX route would require an initial F1 outcross with a selected male to then begin crossing successive progeny back to the keeper female. It can be the most time-consuming, but you will have an opportunity to refine some weak points in the female (select for progeny that have an improved trait from the father) and have male versions of your favorite female to use in other projects.

Whether or not any of these are worth it are for you to decide based on what you want and how involved a process you feel like taking on. If you just wanted to back up a plant whose traits you really like, S1 is a decent way to make sure you have plants that express at least some of those desirable traits.

Do you cure your trim before tumbling?
In a way, yes. When I harvest, I only remove large fans and hang branches to dry. Once dry, I snip the nugs off of stems into jars to cure out. After a couple weeks in the jar, I begin the more manicured trim removing the sugar leaves to be tumbled.
 

Psychonautic83

Well-Known Member
Similar in what regard? Is the question: Assuming I have just popped a pack of regular F1 seeds, will the keeper female reversed and selfed give you the same plant genetically as if I were to instead pick a male to pollinate the keeper female for F2, and then make new female/male selections from the F2 to then make F3?

If so, then the answer would be no, the S1 of the female would not be a genetic replica of the winning female selected from the F3. They may share similar traits coming from the same pool and suffering the same restrictions you’re placing to crown a keeper, but the genotype would not necessarily be the same.


This question would naturally follow from the assumption that all breeding is additive, such that any plants, regardless of strain, past breeding, etc., will always have a standardized level of predictability when getting to F3, S2, or any other generational stopping point. But, breeding and genetics in general is not a rigid predictable practice.

What you’re doing is really based in probabilities within the scope of a particular gene pool. What you start with and what you select to move on in any breeding program will be your biggest determinants. You would be better served to approach each breeding project as its own closed system of focus, since not all plant genotypes are standardized, instead of relative to other breeding projects.

If you have a pack of an F1 polyhybrid and select and move to the F3, you’ll still have far more variance (on average) than if you started with an inbred line (IBL) and bred two more generations (F3 equivalent). The breeding process seeks to reduce the possible genetic arrangements by selecting for traits that express in higher frequency. So while it would be difficult to make a comparison between two wholly different F3 projects, you can make comparisons within a project, “Hey, this F3 is more stable than the original F1”, but not “Hey, this Sundae Cookie Punch F3 is the same level of stability as that Skunk F3.”


If you have a special lady you’d like to save you could make S1, S1BX, or BX. S1 are usually the easier of the options since it only requires one cycle of pollination, but you will end up with a higher rate of recessives since you are breeding exact genotypes (recessives only express when the corresponding recessive genes are present. Since you’re breeding it to itself, all of the recessives are present).

Successive selfing generations and selfed BXs can help you refine your favorite expressions of your keeper.

The BX route would require an initial F1 outcross with a selected male to then begin crossing successive progeny back to the keeper female. It can be the most time-consuming, but you will have an opportunity to refine some weak points in the female (select for progeny that have an improved trait from the father) and have male versions of your favorite female to use in other projects.

Whether or not any of these are worth it are for you to decide based on what you want and how involved a process you feel like taking on. If you just wanted to back up a plant whose traits you really like, S1 is a decent way to make sure you have plants that express at least some of those desirable traits.


In a way, yes. When I harvest, I only remove large fans and hang branches to dry. Once dry, I snip the nugs off of stems into jars to cure out. After a couple weeks in the jar, I begin the more manicured trim removing the sugar leaves to be tumbled.
It's counter to other peoples methods, but I'm not interested in using males, the seeds are for personal use so I see no harm in it.

I believe using only reversed females could greatly expedite the process. That's where I'm aiming my questions :)

Edit: it seems like simple S1's are the bang for the buck. Today I added a small shelf into the top of my flowering cabinet. It fits 3 Solo cups.
 
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Schwaggy P

Well-Known Member
It's counter to other peoples methods, but I'm not interested in using males, the seeds are for personal use so I see no harm in it.

I believe using only reversed females could greatly expedite the process. That's where I'm aiming my questions :)

Edit: it seems like simple S1's are the bang for the buck. Today I added a small shelf into the top of my flowering cabinet. It fits 3 Solo cups.
Whatever method gets you to your goal, no harm done. The reversal would be the quickest way to go about it. As long as you make enough seeds to be able to dig through to find a solid representation of the female that moved you to preserve her, you should be fine.
 

Schwaggy P

Well-Known Member
Here are two examples of the Black Triangle male's progeny
blacktri offspring.jpg
The OG stretch has carried through in both crosses. While this would be difficult to spot in the H.A.OG cross, being that it is also an OG, the longer internodes expressing with the CCS cross is more pronounced given the compact frame of the CCS mother (this is why she was chosen to test the influence of the Black Triangle father).

Interestingly, the CCS's tendency to branch co-apical branches has remained and can be seen in the other phenos. The CCS's more robust stem strength has also been allowed to express with this Black Triangle male. The H.A.OG's more supple stems are showing up in the majority of the plants. This would suggest that the Black Triangle male can beef up an otherwise timidly framed female without overriding some of her nuanced structural qualities.

There are shorter phenos popping out of these Black Triangle male's progeny, so he's not a sure shot to make lanky babies, but this is only expressing in about a quarter of the H.A.OG crosses. I would have to pop more to be able to comfortably gather the stats on percentages, but I'm content with the info I have.

The H.A.OG x Black Triangle is confirming that this was a great base from which to take on the H.A.OG BX project (BX1 seeds currently cooking at day 51).
 
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