Should we have participated in WWII?

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ThickStemz

Well-Known Member
bearkat42 said:
Nah, I'm good with laughing at those who'd suggest that I'd fight for a country that never fought for me. We'll just call it "even".
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I think you're failing to grasp the greater context of all the events that are leading towards the eventual full equality of the decedents of former slaves.

The Constitution was set up, at the end of the 18th century, in order to free the slaves. It was something that would have been impossible to do at the time. We would have never gained our independence from Britain if the government we were trying to form wanted to end slavery. One step at a time, for a more perfect union.

350,000 American soldiers, almost all white, died in an effort to free your ancestors, if one can assume you're an African American. Just under 300,000 died in an effort to maintain the economic model that slavery provided.

Just because it wasn't all done in one instant step isn't anyone's fault. It was the British that forced slavery on America. And once in it wasn't easily abolished. In fact one of the first laws Congress adopted in 1808 was to outlaw the importation of more slaves. The one thing that did was immediately improve the circumstances of the salves here. Compared to African slaves in Brazil and the Caribbean American slaves had it easy.

That's a fairly selfish and short sighted attitude you have about this issue and not really ground in fact.
 
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red w. blue

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
The Japanese attack on the Philippines would have brought us into the war anyway. Pearl Harbor was a preemptive strike and probably the worst move in terms of propaganda in history. But the Japanese knew we would not sit on our hands when they attacked Manilla and Corrigador. There was no way they would leave that real estate in the control of a hostile country which was the case with the US towards Japan. Our entry in the second world war was a given. We got a lot of good war movies out of it too. I probably liked Kelly's Heros the best. Oddball was my favorite. Have a little faith baby, have a little faith.
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He also woofed like a dog, painted pretty pictures with his tanks gun and didn't like dons negative waves. Clint was in it, a better one was where eagles dare with Clint, or the great escape.
 
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red w. blue

Well-Known Member
ThickStemz said:
I think you're failing to grasp the greater context of all the events that are leading towards the eventual full equality of the decedents of former slaves.

The Constitution was set up, at the end of the 18th century, in order to free the slaves. It was something that would have been impossible to do at the time. We would have never gained our independence from Britain if the government we were trying to form wanted to end slavery. One step at a time, for a more perfect union.

350,000 American soldiers, almost all white, died in an effort to free your ancestors, if one can assume you're an African American. Just under 300,000 died in an effort to maintain the economic model that slavery provided.

Just because it wasn't all done in one instant step isn't anyone's fault. It was the British that forced slavery on America. And once in it wasn't easily abolished. In fact one of the first laws Congress adopted in 1808 was to outlaw the importation of more slaves. The one thing that did was immediately improve the circumstances of the salves here. Compared to African slaves in Brazil and the Caribbean American slaves had it easy.

That's a fairly selfish and short sighted attitude you have about this issue and not really ground in fact.
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That's 650 thousand or 10 times as many as killed in Vietnam, from a population of 3 million that's 1 in 4 Americans killed in the war to free the slaves.
 
T

ThickStemz

Well-Known Member
bearkat42 said:
It's 2016.
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We're never going to be perfect, as a people.

Legally we've achieved a perfect balance. The law is perfect I think in how we treat races.

What is left is mostly unconscious biases by some people against others. The overt racism of the past is all but dead.

I'm not going to patronize you and discount your experience.

All I'm trying to say is that when you state this country has never fought for you, presumably as an African American, you discount the sacrafice made by many many people over the decades who stuck their necks out to improve your life.

One other thing I'll say, every morning when the sun rises over the east coast to when it sets on the west, there are hundreds of meetings or events put on by white americans for the benefit of black Americans. I don't know of many other places in the world where one majority that had the ability to maintain absolute privilege voluntarily decided to give it up for the benefit of another group.

Despite what you think you're lucky to be an American and are in her debt.
 
T

ThickStemz

Well-Known Member
red w. blue said:
That's 650 thousand or 10 times as many as killed in Vietnam, from a population of 3 million that's 1 in 4 Americans killed in the war to free the slaves.
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True, but almost half of them were fighting to keep slavery, ultimately, that's why I said 350k died for that.
 
T

ThickStemz

Well-Known Member
bearkat42 said:
I had to stop reading after this, as I prefer non fiction. I'm sure that whatever you said after this probably equates to a pretty cool story though.
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So you must like playing the victim?

Find me one law that has as its intent the oppression of minorities.

I didn't say application of the law. Just laws that are in statutes and the like. No written law exists that permits different treatment based on race.

That's a narrow but deep distinction and I could see how you could fail to see it without explanation.
 
T

ThickStemz

Well-Known Member
bearkat42 said:
The application of the law is really the ONLY thing that matters.
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Nonsense. I've had the law incorrectly applied to me and I'm white. It sucks and costs money and a lot of time but if the law is on your side ultimately you'll come our ahead. At least when it happens to you there is the posibility of a law suit. White middle class college educated guys can't do that.

It doesn't always happen becuase of race. Cops fuck up. AD's don't give a fuck. Judges are over worked.

What I mean more is the unconscious bias some might have that might get you pulled over more often than me.

Application of the law does matter a lot. But it is far from the only thing that matters.
 
T

ThickStemz

Well-Known Member
My point is the progress we've made on this front is immeasurable. Doesn't mean we don't have more to make.

But it also doesn't mean you don't owe a debt to the country similar to me.

You were educated for free as a child. You're given roads and stuff to use. You get social benefits when or if you need them.

I'd say from where we were in 1800 we've come 95% of the way towards full equality. That last 5 percent isn't excusable. But the 95% you've gained has just been laid at your feet.

Don't act like you earned it. Those before you fought for it, and many of them were white
 
bearkat42

bearkat42

Well-Known Member
ThickStemz said:
Nonsense. I've had the law incorrectly applied to me and I'm white. It sucks and costs money and a lot of time but if the law is on your side ultimately you'll come our ahead. At least when it happens to you there is the posibility of a law suit. White middle class college educated guys can't do that.

It doesn't always happen becuase of race. Cops fuck up. AD's don't give a fuck. Judges are over worked.

What I mean more is the unconscious bias some might have that might get you pulled over more often than me.

Application of the law does matter a lot. But it is far from the only thing that matters.
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Do you realize that in Indiana It’s illegal to attend a public event or use public transportation within 4 hours of eating onions or garlic. Application, my friend. My statement stands.
 
bearkat42

bearkat42

Well-Known Member
ThickStemz said:
My point is the progress we've made on this front is immeasurable. Doesn't mean we don't have more to make.

But it also doesn't mean you don't owe a debt to the country similar to me.

You were educated for free as a child. You're given roads and stuff to use. You get social benefits when or if you need them.

I'd say from where we were in 1800 we've come 95% of the way towards full equality. That last 5 percent isn't excusable. But the 95% you've gained has just been laid at your feet.

Don't act like you earned it. Those before you fought for it, and many of them were white
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So even though discrimination was LEGAL in this country for 345+ years (until 1964), in the 52 years since then we've progressed a full 95% towards equality? Interesting...
 
T

ThickStemz

Well-Known Member
bearkat42 said:
Do you realize that in Indiana It’s illegal to attend a public event or use public transportation within 4 hours of eating onions or garlic. Application, my friend. My statement stands.
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Those are old weird laws that are on the books but haven't been removed becuase they've not been enforced.

Indiana could pass a law tomorrow that black people could be beaten by cops doe no good reason. It couldn't be challenged in court until someone was beaten.

That's a hypothetical example and I suspect the language there would result in federal action but it wouldn't be state court.


As to my 95%... I'm not rock solid on that number. We both know it isn't 100%. But what ever 100% looks like we have made long strides toward it.

All that is left is a tiny fraction of overt racists, and those exist in all demographics. But it's subconscious bias that has the most impact. As George W. Bush put it, the "soft bigotry of low expectations."
 
bearkat42

bearkat42

Well-Known Member
ThickStemz said:
Those are old weird laws that are on the books but haven't been removed becuase they've not been enforced.

Indiana could pass a law tomorrow that black people could be beaten by cops doe no good reason. It couldn't be challenged in court until someone was beaten.

That's a hypothetical example and I suspect the language there would result in federal action but it wouldn't be state court.


As to my 95%... I'm not rock solid on that number. We both know it isn't 100%. But what ever 100% looks like we have made long strides toward it.

All that is left is a tiny fraction of overt racists, and those exist in all demographics. But it's subconscious bias that has the most impact. As George W. Bush put it, the "soft bigotry of low expectations."
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I am going to respectfully disagree again. We are nowhere near 100%. I would argue that the percentage is waaay less that that, maybe 55-60% at best. If we were anywhere near 100%, many of the things that continually occur, quite simply just wouldn't. At least not nearly as often.
 
Corso312

Corso312

Well-Known Member
Band of Brothers is the best war themed movie-series I've seen..if ya haven't seen it, check it out.
 
T

ThickStemz

Well-Known Member
bearkat42 said:
I am going to respectfully disagree again. We are nowhere near 100%. I would argue that the percentage is waaay less that that, maybe 55-60% at best. If we were anywhere near 100%, many of the things that continually occur, quite simply just wouldn't. At least not nearly as often.
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Give me an example. Not to challenge you but to better understand.

Last summer when Mike Brown was shot the whole 'hands up don't shoot' thing started until we found out his hands weren't up and he in fact attacked the cop and seemed to be coming back to finish him off. So that evolved into Black Lives Matter.

Are you talking about police violence? There are plenty of unarmed white people shot by the cops every year.

Institutional racism is all but dead and gone. I've read plenty of articles that talk about how much easier it is for blacks to advance in the workplace. Every corporation out there likes to point out how many blacks they have in management positions.

Other than in the hearts and minds of individuals I don't know where this big gap you talk about between the equality of the races exist?

I think the biggest gap and one I'll concede to is the legacy of all our past ills. Blacks are more likely to be born into a poor family becuase of the discrimination of the past. That is hard to correct for. But one thing that doesn't help it is the number of black babies that are born to a single parent. That isn't forced upon the black community, that handicap is self inflicted,
 
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