The Never Ending Abuse of Phosphorous (Bloom foods) to Enhance Flowering

Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
2buds said:
Uncle Ben..

I'm a noobie for sure, but I also have a technical degree so I like to learn before I do and I tend to analyze everything to death... I'm trying to understand the NPK thing with the nutes I use. I use a product called Cutting Edge. My bloom mix is: 3 parts, Micro at 6-0-0, Bloom at 2-1-6 and uncle Johns mix at 0-0-2. I understand that to get what the plant "sees" you would add these together for a total of 8-1-8 and divide by 3.. meaning 2.6-.33-2.6. I think I got this right from this thread and your explanations. But, my question is if the mix from the manufacture are not equal amounts, actually states use 5ml of Micro, 15ml of Bloom (Triple of Micro) and 10ml of Uncle Johns (Double of Micro)
These figures are per gallon of water.

Since the 3 nutes are not equal amounts, then how do you come up with the correct NPK? I'm guessing that you would triple the bloom number and double the Uncle Johns number... meaning the total would be as follows:
Micro - 6-0-0 (5 ml)
Bloom - 6-3-18 (15 ml - Triple the 2-1-6)
Uncle Johns- 0-0-4 (10 ml - Double the 0-0-2)

Total would be 12-3-22, then would you still divide by 3? so it would be 4-1-7 or so. Is this correct?
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Yep, a quick cursory look at your math looks correct. Too damn confusing for this here cowboy though. :D

Also.. I'm growing using Aeroponics/NFT.
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Just curious, why? Wouldn't soil be easier and most likely more productive, especially for a newbie? Are you more interested in the forum "high tech" part of growing or plant culture in general?

Just an observation, some of the most pathetic gardens I see around these parts are those attempting water culture, whether it be aero, DWC, or NFT.

Good luck,
UB
 
BigBudBalls

BigBudBalls

Well-Known Member
Just a quick FYI.

Nature's Necture (I think thats the brand) has the NPK all in individual nutes.
You buy an N and a P and a K.

(too much work for me balancing all that over the grow, but can be good for a boost/correction of a deficiency. I had my system down well, and is ultra simple: MG soil and just water. Xplant for flowering. Quick bloom boost once in flowering, and a little molasses and epsom salt in flowering. Works well for me. But the 'leave it alone' theory I feel is the key; especially for newbies)
 
M

mikegreenthumb

Guest
BigBudBalls said:
Just a quick FYI.

Nature's Necture (I think thats the brand) has the NPK all in individual nutes.
You buy an N and a P and a K.

(too much work for me balancing all that over the grow, but can be good for a boost/correction of a deficiency. I had my system down well, and is ultra simple: MG soil and just water. Xplant for flowering. Quick bloom boost once in flowering, and a little molasses and epsom salt in flowering. Works well for me. But the 'leave it alone' theory I feel is the key; especially for newbies)
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nute's in my opinion ALWAYS should be as needed dunno what the epson salt is for the mollassis is a good thing soil has alot of the mico nutes in it already depending on quality etc but the bottom line "leave it alone" thing dunno bout that the best thing is to get a basic understanding of what makes your plants tick and go from there
 
BigBudBalls

BigBudBalls

Well-Known Member
mikegreenthumb said:
nute's in my opinion ALWAYS should be as needed dunno what the epson salt is for the mollassis is a good thing soil has alot of the mico nutes in it already depending on quality etc but the bottom line "leave it alone" thing dunno bout that the best thing is to get a basic understanding of what makes your plants tick and go from there
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The epsom was for mag. my strained needed it.

The leave it alone part. Have you read many posts here? SO many people over react. One tiny little spot and they freak getting very supplement there is. Let nature do its thing. And if you keep messing with it, you won't get that basic understanding, because you have constantly screwed with it.
 
2

2buds

Member
Uncle Ben said:
Yep, a quick cursory look at your math looks correct. Too damn confusing for this here cowboy though. :D

Just curious, why? Wouldn't soil be easier and most likely more productive, especially for a newbie? Are you more interested in the forum "high tech" part of growing or plant culture in general?

Just an observation, some of the most pathetic gardens I see around these parts are those attempting water culture, whether it be aero, DWC, or NFT.

Good luck,
UB
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Well... I did the aero thing since I THOUGHT it would give me better yield and it seems like it is less waste and expense than Hydro, no medium to get rid off after. I'm not sure I"m going to yield more than soil, but I believed it would at the time. I built my own cloner, veg and flower units, so the expense was not high. Used Tupperware roughnecks, pvc pipe, fence posts for flower, etc.. I have had two grows so far with about 1 oz per plant, have increased with each grow. The 3rd grow I have going right now, I expect more. I used the hi-bloom crap and the leaves are dying off on the bottom. Its in the 5th week of flower and with a strain that should be finished in 6 weeks or so (Bubba Kush). I just added some grow nutes tonight to see if that would help (1/3 of the norm) I'm learning and I'm hoping that I will be able to get a lot more yield, hoping at least 2-3 ozs. a plant when I grow up! and LEARN more.. LOL. This thread, learning more on what a plant needs and NOT believing all you read will help me and NOT using the turbo-bloom stuff either.

Another question, I added tonight the Grow formula (2-1-6), but my Micro from Cutting Edge is 6-0-0. If I want to add Nitrogen, should I add just the Micro? since it is higher in Nitrogen? or should I use the 2-1-6 (grow formula) to add a little. My leaves seem to be dying off on the bottom, like their drying up, not all of them and the tops looks great.
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
BigBudBalls said:
The leave it alone part. Have you read many posts here? SO many people over react. One tiny little spot and they freak getting very supplement there is. Let nature do its thing. And if you keep messing with it, you won't get that basic understanding, because you have constantly screwed with it.
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That bears repeating.

2buds said:
Another question, I added tonight the Grow formula (2-1-6), but my Micro from Cutting Edge is 6-0-0. If I want to add Nitrogen, should I add just the Micro? since it is higher in Nitrogen? or should I use the 2-1-6 (grow formula) to add a little. My leaves seem to be dying off on the bottom, like their drying up, not all of them and the tops looks great.
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For starts, there is no such thing as a "Grow" formula that gets the N and K reversed as it should be. A "grow" formula, aka veg, promotes foliage which means more N than K. If you need N, then it looks like the Micro is what you'll need to use. You have a N deficiency.
 
2

2buds

Member
Uncle Ben said:
That bears repeating.



For starts, there is no such thing as a "Grow" formula that gets the N and K reversed as it should be. A "grow" formula, aka veg, promotes foliage which means more N than K. If you need N, then it looks like the Micro is what you'll need to use. You have a N deficiency.
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Well.. thats what Cutting Edge calls their "Veg" solution... they call it Grow, funny how the K is higher than the N which is what you have said in this post about Hydro nutes. What can I tell you, they call it Grow, but more K than N.
 
W

widow87

Well-Known Member
i got a question real quick can u use hydro nutes in soil also im using a hydro store line of nutes brew n grow i started a tread about this a while ago but never got much of a response by the way uncle ben you know ur shit my plants are way happier with a dose of n with my bloom nutes during flowering thanks ..widow
 
Phelps

Phelps

Well-Known Member
Uncle Ben said:
That's a good plant food and specifically I'm talking about Peters Classic 10-30-20 which has more nitrate N than ammonical N and quite a bit more Mg than most and good amount of Fe to help combat leaf chlorosis. Obviously if the plant starts to prematurely losing lower leaves, then that's not what it needs so you switch back to a higher N food.
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All I was saying is, every ones environment is different, and it is best to read the plants, vs saying "This is what it needs because it worked for me".
Quite the contrary. I've grown pot exclusively using high N foods. The leaves stay flat, cool, green and healthy....and that's what counts.
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Again, it worked for u, good for u. The way I grow, hydroponically, N levels that high wouldnt work, period. U can say all u want that it will, and I dont know the science behind it but it doesnt work for me.
What counts for me is bud production. If I have to scrap a few bottom leaves in exchange for bud girth, count me in.
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Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
widow87 said:
i got a question real quick can u use hydro nutes in soil also im using a hydro store line of nutes brew n grow i started a tread about this a while ago but never got much of a response by the way uncle ben you know ur shit my plants are way happier with a dose of n with my bloom nutes during flowering thanks ..widow
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You can, but be sure you don't duplicate the minerals. IOW, if you hydro nutes contain Ca and so does your soil, it might be too much. Soil-less is fine.
 
W

widow87

Well-Known Member
yea i think im gonna switch to coco and use the canna line of nute what do u think about those? i have heard good things but would like to know what u think of them oer what u would use if u were using coco thanks ...widow
 
seasmoke

seasmoke

Active Member
Uncle Ben said:
Excellent. You can mix and match to get where you want to go. If I had only 2 foods to choose from, for any kind of plant material, cannabis or otherwise, I'd choose a (1) 9-3-6 and a 3-9-6 from someone like Dyna-Gro or a (2) 30-10-10 and 10-30-20 from someone like Peters, or values pretty close to those. Commercially I use different foods from many types of manufacturers and buy them by the 25 and 50 lb bags. Heck, Walmart makes a great food.
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I just got my JC BB in and JC 30-10-10 is on the way. I'm makeing a total switch over....Thanks UB.
I have been feeding them MG, will I have to ween then off that and into JC, or just nute as schedule?
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
seasmoke said:
I just got my JC BB in and JC 30-10-10 is on the way. I'm makeing a total switch over....Thanks UB.
I have been feeding them MG, will I have to ween then off that and into JC, or just nute as schedule?
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Use the 30-10-10 for veg and the other for flowering. Just a thought, Peters foods are extremely hygroscopic, meaning they will readily absorb water from the air. This is a good thing, means they are pure and contain no fillers. That won't hurt their effectiveness, just makes them messy in time. I only open the container in the house when the A/C is on or I know the RH is low.
 
A

autoflowa

Well-Known Member
im using hammerhead for flower it only has P-K for flowering . So far, so good but if i notice it needs N i wont be scared to add it now :) thanks man
 
seasmoke

seasmoke

Active Member
I'll be sure to keep it in a cool dry place. I suspected it might do that.
On the package it says under high intense light, to use double dose for great, fast growing. does 2400 wtt HID count in a 8x8 room as high intensity?
 
dragonpuff

dragonpuff

Member
hey uncle ben, and all.

thanks for this thread, i am really happy to see such a no-voodoo growing thread, as a new grower, the 5 part solutions with additives seems pretty overwhelming.

gh 3 part series converts to these numbers for the full veg and full flower phase

veg 7-4-3.6
flower 2.3-4-11
lucas formula 2.5-2.5-5

i would like your opinion on a few things if you don't mind :)

a. what do you think about those npk's?
i think veg seems ok, but flower is a perfect example of slamming with k while neglecting n.

b. also would the lucas formula seem to fit better into good botany habits?

c. lastly, i would love for you to look at my romulan grow because i'm being told i gave too much nitrogen, but i followed the instructions very precisley, i never saw nute burn, but had the super leaf syndrome where big ass wide fan leaves grew a ton instead of bud production. do you agree with their determination, or was this something else? and is this the formulas fault or (more likely) my fault?

thanks so much for all your posts, if i was able to absorb 10% of the knowledge you've passed on, i would be growing monster crops today :)

romulan grow details and pictures:
https://www.rollitup.org/marijuana-plant-problems/293437-romulan-finished-questions.html

thanks again, and i hope this isn't thread jacking, i think it could be a great example of what you're talking about, if not sorry for the clutter :)


edit: in my journey of trying to read everything you've posted, i found out what you think of a/b, but if you care to comment on c i'd appreciate it
 
2

2buds

Member
uncle Ben/others.... I changed the res yesterday with new nutes, did NOT add the turbo bloom (I'm calling it that, but not the real name) this time and up'd the Nitrogen. Its really interesting, I do aeroponics/NFT and your supposed to add water each day to bring up the res to the original level, in my case its 3 gallons (I only have 5 plants). Anyway, each night I was adding only 1/2 gallon of water to bring it back up to the 3 gallon mark, which means that the plants drank about 1/2 a gallon a night. Tonight, I had to add 1.3 gallons of water, which means for the first time in a couple of weeks it drank over 1 gallon in 24 hours. Does the nitrogen increase help the plants/leaves absorb water better and more of it? I would think this is a good sign.

No more turbo bloom for me.

Thanks!
 
DaveCoulier

DaveCoulier

Well-Known Member
2buds said:
uncle Ben/others.... I changed the res yesterday with new nutes, did NOT add the turbo bloom (I'm calling it that, but not the real name) this time and up'd the Nitrogen. Its really interesting, I do aeroponics/NFT and your supposed to add water each day to bring up the res to the original level, in my case its 3 gallons (I only have 5 plants). Anyway, each night I was adding only 1/2 gallon of water to bring it back up to the 3 gallon mark, which means that the plants drank about 1/2 a gallon a night. Tonight, I had to add 1.3 gallons of water, which means for the first time in a couple of weeks it drank over 1 gallon in 24 hours. Does the nitrogen increase help the plants/leaves absorb water better and more of it? I would think this is a good sign.

No more turbo bloom for me.

Thanks!
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I was just reading a plant study, and it mentioned somewhere in it Nitrogen improves water uptake by plants, so I went googling to see if I could find more info about that.

I found this:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/frfgjapum648jbkp/
 
2

2buds

Member
DaveCoulier said:
I was just reading a plant study, and it mentioned somewhere in it Nitrogen improves water uptake by plants, so I went googling to see if I could find more info about that.

I found this:

http://www.springerlink.com/content/frfgjapum648jbkp/
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Thanks Dave! Great information. I'm hoping that it fatens up the buds! I started the N think so late though in flower. Wish I would have read this tread a couple of grows ago. Oh well..
 
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