The Never Ending Abuse of Phosphorous (Bloom foods) to Enhance Flowering

Katatawnic said:

To be fair, your initial post did come off as more of that negative stuff. However, you've since clarified, so it's all good. When poking fun, it's always helpful to readers when smilies like or or are used, to help replace the lack of body language and voice inflections when talking via text.

People are constantly asking UB (and others, of course) about plant nutrition, in several other threads daily. Further, there are many people, myself included, who appreciate tutorials and troubleshooting to already be present when seeking solutions.

Every site is going to have BS and negativity. Par for the course.



There's no difference between one plant or one thousand when it comes to basic gardening essentials such as nutrition.

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See what I mean. They come in and stir up crap and then bug out. Talk about negativity and BS. I asked him to stay around and maybe help out, but I guess we are not worth his time?

Thanks for the rep Kat, just stating what needed to be said to him. IMO

Keep Em Green!!!

Big

W Dragon said:

hey uncle ben and all the other dudes out there sorry if i'm getting this wrong i'm new to the site and to the computer and unfortunately not to sure what i'm doing is right, i'm on my first ever crop and following my old grandads advicee of to keep them mean keep them green and give em only what they need i have five ladys in an area 1.2x1.2x2m under a 600hps in a mylar lined tent my smallest 2 measured 24'' last night and my other 3 28-30'' i haven't lost a single leaf yet and i'm in week 5 and on day 4 of flowering as of this am and all i've fed mine on is miracle grow for azalea,camellia and rhododendron 30ml per gallon every 3 days so far with only 1 straight watering to date since i started them on the feed at about 20days in my ph is at a filterd 6.5 my temps are 28-31c the nutritional values of miracle grow are 6-1.7-5 and added half a cup of urine per gallon 3 times i have seriously healthy looking plants and the m g only cost me £2 per litre and i'm still on the first bottle i was wondering if you could suggest what would be my best option for flowering as i'm already 4 days in everything i have looked at so far seems to have quiet a high NPK ratio and i'm worried about causing damage or defs being my first time thanks UB thought i'd ask you because unfortunately i,ve read alot of crap from supposed growers and even i can see that unfortunately it is crap
rep to you for the great info

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If it's working for you, then why change a thing?

Now, we have the pot calling the kettle black:

Tattooboy37 said:

All i said is that i see a bunch of nonsense that isn't related to the topic. How did it get from P in regards to inducing flowering to all the other bs.

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It's not about P inducing flowering. It's about too much P having an effect of reducing your yields by inducing premature leaf drop and micro deficiencies. You need to start at the beginning and read page one.

Plus i came here to search for something and was brought to this topic for some reason? I'm the one who was trying to get everyone to lighten up and help out, not post more negative stuff. As for the you helping people out, how bout you answer their questions as THEY post them not just start some thread about random things that noobies dont get anyways? The reason I came here was to see what people think of Cutting Edges line.

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You say you see a bunch of "off topic nonsense" and then want opinions about some snake oil crap line? You're off topic, son. Start a new thread.

UB

thanks for replying mate it's much appreciated after re reading the thread i sort of come to the same conclusion any of your threads you would reccomend to a info hungry starter like myself mate getting a bit tired of reading uneducated babble from the heard thanks again mate +rep for all the real info

W Dragon said:

thanks for replying mate it's much appreciated after re reading the thread i sort of come to the same conclusion any of your threads you would reccomend to a info hungry starter like myself mate getting a bit tired of reading uneducated babble from the heard thanks again mate +rep for all the real info

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Read my NooB Advice thread in sig link, UB is there helpin out, read the whole thing it's fun and full of info there are a few haters but it's all good

i will do thanks mate and thanks for responding +rep for the help mate it's nice to know help is at hand and i don't just have to rely on the little knowledge that i have

Lets take a look at Advanced Nutrients Seni Grow & Seni Bloom.

SeniGrow Part A vs SeniBloom Part A:
Both labels are very close to each other, the difference is SeniBloom removed Iron and Manganese, lowered Ca 0.8%, upped total N 0.6%and added K2O 3.10%

SeniGrow Part B vs SeniBloom Part B:
Again both labels very close, the difference is SeniBloom lowered total N 1.0%, raised P2O5 3.9%, K2O and Mg stayed the same.

Uncle Ben is right about needing N during the bloom stage, I think I remember Uncle Ben on the OG site? I might be wrong.

SeniGrow: Part A
3.7-0-0
0.10% Ammonia-cal nitrogen
1.90% Nitrate nitrogen
1.70% other water soluble nitrogen
2.50% Calcium (Ca)
0.12% Iron (Fe)
0.05% Manganese (Mn)
0.00096% Molybdenum (Mo)

SeniGrow: Part B
2.5-2.2-5.7
0.10% Ammonia-cal nitrogen
1.00% Nitrate nitrogen
1.40% other water soluble nitrogen
2.20% Phosphate (P2O5)
5.70% Potash (K2O)
1.00% Magnesium (Mg)

SeniBloom: Part A
4.3-0.3.1
0.10% Ammonia-cal nitrogen
2.10% Nitrate nitrogen
2.10% other water soluble nitrogen
3.10% Potash (k2O)
1.70% Calcium (Ca)
0.0008% Molybdenum (Mo)

SeniBloom: Part B
1.5-6.1-5.7
0.02% Ammonia-cal nitrogen
0.50% Nitrate nitrogen
0.98% other water soluble nitrogen
6.10% Phosphate (P2O5)
5.70$% Potash (K2O)
1.00% Magnesium (Mg)

The worst part is AN bottles leak from the lid when you shake them up, that pisses me off! all the research and they can't get the bottle to stay leak proof.

spl1 said:

Uncle Ben is right about needing N during the bloom stage, I think I remember Uncle Ben on the OG site? I might be wrong.

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Two pinned threads going on 150K views when it went down. Remember the Link-O-Rama?

The worst part is AN bottles leak from the lid when you shake them up, that pisses me off! all the research and they can't get the bottle to stay leak proof.

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If leaking bottles is the worst part of using AN's stuff, you ought to be happy.

Hey UB

Don't want to take up too much of your time but I was wondering if you could just give your opinion about the nutrients I'm using. I, like many, have leaves dropping prematurely. I've increased my N and it seemsed to help a bit, but I'm thinking of switching to another nutrient blend.

Dutch Nutrient Formula:

Gro A - 2-0-2
Gro B - 0-1-3

Bloom A - 3-0-3
Bloom B - 1-0.5-3

And how do you calculate the final A+B NPK values?

Thanks UB

Two pinned threads going on 150K views when it went down. Remember the Link-O-Rama?

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Yep I do, I miss that site no kids telling you your wrong, LOL
Every one was there to learn not crap, back when every one wanted to learn and would read a book on basic botany. Now with the MMJ boom every one with a bag of dirt, or a gallon of water thinks there a farmer.
It reminds me of all the people that buy the get rich quick stuff and never really put the time in to learn what they should before spending money.

At least your still out there willing to teach the basics for the newbies. DAM I MISS OG!!!

If leaking bottles is the worst part of using AN's stuff, you ought to be happy.

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I get to test products from time to time, a friend of mine owns a hydro store and gives me free stuff to play with from time to time.

CaNNaBiZ CaNucK said:

Hey UB

Don't want to take up too much of your time but I was wondering if you could just give your opinion about the nutrients I'm using.

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They suck. Any more questions?

I, like many, have leaves dropping prematurely. I've increased my N and it seemsed to help a bit, but I'm thinking of switching to another nutrient blend.

Dutch Nutrient Formula:

Gro A - 2-0-2
Gro B - 0-1-3

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If in equal amounts, add them up and divide by 2.

Go ahead and switch. You'll end up with the same ole crap.

UB

Uncle Ben said:

They suck. Any more questions?

If in equal amounts, add them up and divide by 2.

Go ahead and switch. You'll end up with the same ole crap.

UB

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UB, You Rock! Thanks again for the help. This site is lucky to have ya

+REP

CaNNaBiZ CaNucK said:

UB, You Rock! Thanks again for the help. This site is lucky to have ya

+REP

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Thanks and comment on the avatar, it's very cool.

I just spotted this. Good advice.

I blend my own nutes and use a ratio of 2-1-1 in veg and 1-4-3 in bloom. I maintain high levels of micros throughout, as well.

I think we're on the same page...

Here's an excellent read:

http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda Chalker-Scott/Horticultural Myths_files/Myths/Phosphate.pdf

That's why AN has you using Voodoo juice and Piranha heavy every watering is to replace every thing the heavy Phosphate loads kill off.

Uncle Ben said:

Here's an excellent read:

http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda Chalker-Scott/Horticultural Myths_files/Myths/Phosphate.pdf

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That's a great site. Here's another one everyone should read (along with several others there):

http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda Chalker-Scott/Horticultural Myths_files/Myths/Horticultural peat.pdf

Just a reminder for everyone that, whether "chemical" or "organic", every product comes from somewhere, and they all have consequences. The labels mean nothing.

First, Thanks for the great links/info ub and kriegs!

spl1 said:

That's why AN has you using Voodoo juice and Piranha heavy every watering is to replace every thing the heavy Phosphate loads kill off.

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Thats almost true sp1, but if a "heavy P load" kills the beneficial bacteria then there is no really fast way to get the bacteria we want to colonize the roots again. I figure (opinion)
that most of the bacteria we want has a direct relationship with the roots and form colonies (or whatever it would be called) IN and around the roots.
So AN's fancy (and VERY expensive) lil microbe additive, might add beneficial bacteria to the medium but i dont think the microbes can colonize the roots as fast as you can kill them with an od of P.
That voodoo juice has some very outrageous claims, they claim 117% increase in root mass but they fail to tell you what they tested against. If you used the same medium and brewed your own microbe tea with simple castings and/or good compost and ran a test against AN bullshit , then i bet 100 bucks that it would not be no 117% then. (my guess is 0% and the fresh brew might even be better but thats just an opinion)
AN is the biggest thief of growers money on the market.


I got a 500% increase in root mass and plant mass with one single serving of MG all purpose fert, but i sure in the hell aint makin a bogus claim that MG will create a 500% increase in anything. Its just what my plants wanted at the time. They wanted food not MG or any brand , just food.


wb

Hey UB.. I have a specific question for you.

How long, in your experience, does it take for MJ to uptake a feed and resolve a N deficiency? My girl sprung a yellow leaf a week ago, then another, then a bunch. It's classic N deficiency - that I recognize from the same experience with many other plants. I gave her a 1/3 dose of 6-4-4 two days ago, a very conservative feed in my mind, and I haven't seen any improvement yet.

But, I don't want to load feed upon feed == we all know where that takes you.

With other stuff in my garden, I notice the rates of resolution differ greatly by species; can take months for hollies, for e.g.

wyteboi, you're right. They understand that there is no way anyone can refute their claims, that no credible non partisan testing lab or government agency will protect the consumer, so, they go about their biz unabated.

Kriegs said:

Hey UB.. I have a specific question for you.

How long, in your experience, does it take for MJ to uptake a feed and resolve a N deficiency?

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Depends on application, medium and N source. Should be pretty quick.

My girl sprung a yellow leaf a week ago, then another, then a bunch. It's classic N deficiency - that I recognize from the same experience with many other plants. I gave her a 1/3 dose of 6-4-4 two days ago, a very conservative feed in my mind, and I haven't seen any improvement yet.

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What is it, Fox Farms? Can you link me to the analysis?

Either not enough N or wrong N source for fast action, mostly ammonical or urea form which will take some time to convert to nitrate. Find Schultz's Miracid, a 30-10-10. That will green it up quickly, or add a tsp of ammonium sulfate to a gallon of water and drench your pots.

Uncle Ben said:

wyteboi, you're right. They understand that there is no way anyone can refute their claims, that no credible non partisan testing lab or government agency will protect the consumer, so, they go about their biz unabated.



Depends on application, medium and N source. Should be pretty quick.

What is it, Fox Farms? Can you link me to the analysis?

Either not enough N or wrong N source for fast action, mostly ammonical or urea form which will take some time to convert to nitrate. Find Schultz's Miracid, a 30-10-10. That will green it up quickly, or add a tsp of ammonium sulfate to a gallon of water and drench your pots.

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Thanks, UB. I think I was treading a little too lightly, and I didn't think about the pace of the N source. The plant is in soil, BTW - a 50/50 of MG pre-fert and MG Organic. However, when I made the transplant from 2 to 3 gallons, there was surprisingly little room for new soil in there, and she's really blasted off since then (probably used it up already).

Here's a "real analysis" of Foxfarms Grow Big, beyond the simple 6-4-4 given on the label (and yes, that's what I used). It's on page 3 in alphabetical order:

http://www.oregon.gov/ODA/PEST/docs/pdf/lab_2006_1231.pdf

I have some basic MG 24-8-16 on hand; I've seen that stuff work pretty fast before. I also have the Azalea/Rhodo formula - much like the Miracid. I'll give that a try if I don't see improvement soon (at 1/3 strength also, is my thinking..).