Would you classify this as torture?

Canna Sylvan · Mar 26, 2013

Doer,

You have a seriously skewed outlook on life. Torment is your own perception of fear. Torture is when another purposefully causes you torment. Torture doesn't need physical pain. Stop it with this redefinition bullshit lately.

Shakespeare got it right, a rose by any other name would still smell as sweet.

It doesn't matter if you're right, as long as you understand the concept. Deflection is a form of fallacy.

ricky1lung · Mar 26, 2013

Three things stood out to me.

He was in restraints and the officers had complete control over him.
While in restraints he got the blast of pepper spray.
One of the officers decided to rub it in a bit by covering the guys eyes with his hands.

I wont call it torture per say, but I will say they went overboard.
Yeah, the guy spit on the fuzz, in turn the fuzz figured they needed to send a message that goes beyond doing their job.

Hrmmm, and people wonder why they get spit on in the first place? lol

***Edit***

After I replied I went back and read the whole thread, IMO there are some misconstrued views here.
Waterboarding and drowning a person multiple times per session is not torture? We live in a desensitized
world due to an extreme increase of access to information and media, but really, if you were strapped to the board what would you consider it?

[shakes head]

Doer · Mar 26, 2013

Canna Sylvan said:
Doer,

You have a seriously skewed outlook on life. Torment is your own perception of fear. Torture is when another purposefully causes you torment. Torture doesn't need physical pain. Stop it with this redefinition bullshit lately.

Shakespeare got it right, a rose by any other name would still smell as sweet.

It doesn't matter if you're right, as long as you understand the concept. Deflection is a form of fallacy.

What am I deflecting? There you go again. You are basing on emotion. You refuse me, my ground. I have taken no sides, here. And what you think the words mean, is meaningless to me. Words have legal definitions and there is the plethora of opinion. What you express to me, right now, I call the tyranny of opinion.

I am discussing the fine points yet you still must force a label for understanding. This will pass, I'm sure.

Put to the torment. It is different from torture. I can surely torment you emotionally and psychologically. You can make them think DOWN is up or it's last Weds.

Your definition is that any restraint can be torture accord to the whims of opinion. When I sat there chained to a bench and hunger, ignored. It was fucked up. When the cop hauled off and slapped me because I didn't want to tell my name? It has no end.

It cannot be self defined. Not legally. No one gets to say, well, I feel that is torture. Well, you can. But, when you start to say what is and is not by your opinion only, that is tyranny of opinion. Mob rule.

My view seems skewed to you. So what? Is that suppose to mean something to me? No?

Then the only reason is insult. Is any corporal punishment torture to you? Spanking?

A wedgie?

Dr Kynes · Mar 26, 2013

Canna Sylvan said:
I seriously hope you're trolling. As much of a whiny bitch the OP is, once you get control of the situation, it's uncalled for to " tune 'em up" because your pig pride was hurt cause the other proved his dick was way bigger.

Don't get me wrong. Whatever he did which pissed off the pigs like that, I'd kill him for it. But that's the pig's job. He chose it, he knew that was a possibility. I have no sympathy for criminals, nor pigs.

A pig will do this even if you're innocent but they lost face, you pay. That is why I NEVER talk to pigs and consider them scum. I laugh at these pigs. The criminal scum there won.

nope. not trolling.

i got no sympathy for screws or pigs, but i also got no sympathy for that asshole or the others like him.

screws are the worst kind of cops, and yes they are all about ensuring their dominance. they are alwys afraid they might lose face, but when you get thrown in slam is this a secret?

anyone who gets thrown in the joint and then fails to give the screws face is asking to get worked over.

they didnt "Tune Him Up" a bit, they worked him over a little, put him in his place, established a firm baseline of dominance, and did everything short of humping his leg. and he earned it.

when pigs do this shit to people on the street it pisses me off, but in the joint they HAVE to operate that way, since you are dealing with the worst scum on the planet on BOTH sides of the bars. kindly prison guards wind up shivved in a mass escape, and Virtuous Persuasion" will get you no results among the inmates in pelican bay.

Padawanbater2 · Mar 26, 2013

Torture is justified if you're incarcerated?

ricky1lung · Mar 26, 2013

Bush Rummy & Cheney counted on people who have a loose definition of torture. It was the spread of their propaganda
that helped change the way of thought on torture. They justified it by saying that saving Americans at any cost is justified
and needed.

It is now said that the tactics utilized did not provide any information that actually stopped any future attacks.

So raise the bar higher, set new precedences and find new ways to force submission. One day the culture you support may be the very same
that breeds your own personal future.

I dont think the rest of the world really bought into the Bush/Rummy/Cheney propaganda machine.

Doer, perhaps while evaluating why the rest of the world resents the US as you stated earlier you should take these things into account. You could also toss
in the economics that filtered down to other markets causing collapse in other countries. The US was actually fairly well respected until the witch hunt down a turkey trail
for WMD's that never existed. The wars, the fear mongering and the economics of it all that came from dubya's administration is what has really caused much of todays resentment.

Dr Kynes · Mar 26, 2013

Padawanbater2 said:
Torture is justified if you're incarcerated?

that wasnt torture.
that was less severe than the old fashioned "Station Corrections" the cops dealt out to truants and mischief makers when i was a lad.

that whimpering droog probably FEELS he was tortured, but he hasnt been. he was forced to submit to the screws, and thats all.

it may be shocking, and it may be unpleasnt to you, but it doesnt bother me a bit.

i know what real violence looks like, and that wasnt even close. that wasnt even bullying. all that got hurt was feelings, but it's absolutely horrifying on video to the kind hearted joe-public who never has to see what really goes on down on the seamy underbelly.

live in watts or richmond for a few months and youll wonder what all the fuss was about.

tomahawk2406 · Mar 26, 2013

yeah that sucked but fuck man, why would you let it get that far? You break the law, you get caught. act like a fucking man. take it. jail is still fucking jail not a "safe environment for criminals to act as they please." ............sure did change his fucking attitude though.

Dr Kynes · Mar 26, 2013

ricky1lung said:
Bush Rummy & Cheney counted on people who have a loose definition of torture. It was the spread of their propaganda
that helped change the way of thought on torture. They justified it by saying that saving Americans at any cost is justified
and needed.

It is now said that the tactics utilized did not provide any information that actually stopped any future attacks.

So raise the bar higher, set new precedences and find new ways to force submission. One day the culture you support may be the very same
that breeds your own personal future.

I dont think the rest of the world really bought into the Bush/Rummy/Cheney propaganda machine.

Doer, perhaps while evaluating why the rest of the world resents the US as you stated earlier you should take these things into account. You could also toss
in the economics that filtered down to other markets causing collapse in other countries. The US was actually fairly well respected until the witch hunt down a turkey trail
for WMD's that never existed. The wars, the fear mongering and the economics of it all that came from dubya's administration is what has really caused much of todays resentment.

1) torture does not have a loose definition, and the us does not use torture, in any way. only by stretching and deforming the nature of the word torture to include any unpleasantness or coercion, even psychological pressure, can enhanced interrogations be called torture. your reasoning on this matter is crafted by propaganda all right, propaganda from YOUR SIDE, not from bush cheney or rumsfeld. Bwana Obama contionues the same methods, UN-ALTERED to this day, when he could stop it with an order to the joint chiefs. why has he not issued this order? because he doesnt think it's torture either. he just said it was torture during the campaign to get votes and support from the squeamish left and the peacniks and pacifists.

2) "it is now said..." but NOT by anyone who would be in a position to know. only those who were opposed to interrogation of any kind, and opposed to the war in any way.

3) "I dont think the rest of the world really bought into the Bush/Rummy/Cheney propaganda machine." nope they had their own propaganda machine, which allows such stunning insanity as Dominique Strauss Khan, Socialist, and International Banker to run for the presidency of France.... Think about that for a second, Socialist... and International Banker.... hypocrisy much? and such things are commonplace in europe and the rest of the world. ohh no, they didnt believe the bush propaganda machine, they had already used up all theyr credulioty swallowing the propaganda of the New Left and the New Socialists, and New Labour.

4) weapons of mass destruction also have a firmly established definition, both in general, and in specific to the cease fire treaty with iraq. saddam hussein was in violation of both definitions, and never abided by a single stipulation in the cease fire or the UN resolutions. if you think weapons of mass destruction were not found in iraq, consult your wikileaks for more information.

5) the economic collapse was all america's fault? hmmm... seems that some countries arent collapsing, only the ones who leveraged themselves into unsustainable debt. and america didnt force you euro-lefties into that position, you chose it all by yourselves.
playing the blame game may make you feel better, but it's still just self-delusion.

6) "America Bad" yeah we pretty much got that. you euro-lefties havent been terribly subtle on that score. it's a good thing we dont care what you think.

Carthoris · Mar 26, 2013

Harrekin said:
To me it looks like he got pepper sprayed and had a cover put over his mouth to stop him spitting at people.

Its harsh, but prison officers need show no fear nor weakness.

You can say what you want about cops, etc but most prison officers are decent people and treat prisoners as real people but at the same time, they can't be seen to be weak or powerless.

Given he doesn't seem like he was beaten at all, I'd say its a necessary evil.

Is that Irish compassionate liberalism? How does being tied down, verbally abused, and tortured help someone who is obviously mentally deranged? It doesn't seem much different than if they just beat him with a bat to me. We are trying to help you (spray in the fact with pepper spray) We are are trying to help you (ties into a chair) You are our bitch (beating) Jesus christ, who could possibly condone this treatment?

Carthoris · Mar 26, 2013

Doer said:
Umm...strictly speaking what you describe is Torment. And indeed torment is often a big dose of terror, to go with some physical discomfort to amplify the terrible torment.

So, waterboarding is torment. The Inquisition, breaking bones that will never heal, correctly, is torture. Don't need blood for torture.

It is a fine line to be sure. I draw it at this line. Does the torment result in lasting physical disability? A broken bone, not even smashed, well set, is 10 weeks or more of lasting physical disability.

Mental disabilities will result from torment, and we can be tormented to death. But, it is done in such a way, in the modern world, you will be revived. A Doctor is standing by, if you do end up drowning on a water board. Still Torment. Not torture. In fact, I'm pretty sure water boarding is a punishment for lies.

Not torture. You are not questioned. It's silent cold. And there is a big fat medical corpsman sitting there reading porn.

I believe they actual drown you into un-consciousness, then revive you. OK? Ready to go? (not to you, to your drowning personnel)

They might kill you several times in one session. But, look mom, no torture. Just Torment for lying.

Raping and murdering a persons mother and sister is torment. Raping a person is torment. Raping while cutting is torture. Gotcha. We understand. The only question I have is "Seriously?"

Carthoris · Mar 26, 2013

Dr Kynes said:
nope. not trolling.

i got no sympathy for screws or pigs, but i also got no sympathy for that asshole or the others like him.

screws are the worst kind of cops, and yes they are all about ensuring their dominance. they are alwys afraid they might lose face, but when you get thrown in slam is this a secret?

anyone who gets thrown in the joint and then fails to give the screws face is asking to get worked over.

they didnt "Tune Him Up" a bit, they worked him over a little, put him in his place, established a firm baseline of dominance, and did everything short of humping his leg. and he earned it.

when pigs do this shit to people on the street it pisses me off, but in the joint they HAVE to operate that way, since you are dealing with the worst scum on the planet on BOTH sides of the bars. kindly prison guards wind up shivved in a mass escape, and Virtuous Persuasion" will get you no results among the inmates in pelican bay.

If I get caught with an ounce of weed in my state I become a felon and will likely do jail time. Smoking weed makes me open to being tortured and pepper sprayed while tied to a chair?

Harrekin · Mar 26, 2013

Fingernails with pliers...torture.

Bag over head and pepperspray... "crowd control".

It's like saying crack is the same as weed, same country but different sports if you get the metaphor.

Harrekin · Mar 26, 2013

Carthoris said:
If I get caught with an ounce of weed in my state I become a felon and will likely do jail time. Smoking weed makes me open to being tortured and pepper sprayed while tied to a chair?

What do you think would happen if you refused to comply with a guard/prison staff and spat on one of their faces?

Remove the emotion, common sense, what do you think would happen?

Doer · Mar 26, 2013

ricky1lung said:
Doer, perhaps while evaluating why the rest of the world resents the US as you stated earlier you should take these things into account. You could also toss in the economics that filtered down to other markets causing collapse in other countries.

The US was actually fairly well respected until the witch hunt down a turkey trail for WMD's that never existed. The wars, the fear mongering and the economics of it all that came from dubya's administration is what has really caused much of todays resentment.

Of course, but you can't really see it this way, only. You and I woke up yesterday, but in the history of the world nothing has changed. We didn't create the horrors of war but, WE dearly intended to use the Bomb on Germany. They surrendered so we used Japan for Stalin's demo. WW2 is not over yet. It's still simmering and Gestapo is running a govt again. Egypt.

Nothing has changed. Even the hopes are the same. You are talking about the notorious and savage, huuuumannnns.

I don't know why Americans are on this high horse like we can show the High Road. But the world knows that is high horse shit.

And it is almost treasonous in a way, to me. It adds to the problem we have while claiming our the High Road cures the problems. I said why we aren't liked. And it isn't that we torture, believe me. It's because we claim we don't.

Americans are full of shit. We come in Force...people die. We sneak around in their countries...people die. We don't...people die. We leave...people die.

We elect these retarded Partisans that can only barely pass the squeeky clean test, more bullshit.We throw money away but pretend everyone wants to be perfect. Like US.. We are proven fickle and untrustworhy, that's why we are hated with disgust. We have it our way but pretend it is for their good. Only concerned with ourselves in self-rule. Can you imagine that?

We do Lucy and the football to everybody. Slippery, arrogant, and full of shit. And so are our enemies, just not quite as well, at present.

Dude, this world is not new. WE come and go. American is full of shit, that's why we are hated. It can't be changed and it won't be changed because it is working, just barely and so much better than all else in history.

But, this namby pamby, we take the High Road, you seem to subscribe to (along with very many Americans) is the real arrogance, the real reason we are resented. You act like we are supposes to be perfect. That is sickening to this world.

I'm being very real. Patriotism is my right. It's my umbrella of Nuclear Fire. But, I am sanquine enough to see we are no better than anyone now or in history. Just more powerful.

Padawanbater2 · Mar 26, 2013

Dr Kynes said:
that wasnt torture.
that was less severe than the old fashioned "Station Corrections" the cops dealt out to truants and mischief makers when i was a lad.

that whimpering droog probably FEELS he was tortured, but he hasnt been. he was forced to submit to the screws, and thats all.

it may be shocking, and it may be unpleasnt to you, but it doesnt bother me a bit.

i know what real violence looks like, and that wasnt even close. that wasnt even bullying. all that got hurt was feelings, but it's absolutely horrifying on video to the kind hearted joe-public who never has to see what really goes on down on the seamy underbelly.

live in watts or richmond for a few months and youll wonder what all the fuss was about.

It's justified because you believe the level of violence presented in the clip couldn't reasonably be defined as torture?

Torture

1. the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty.

2. a method of inflicting such pain.

3. Often, tortures. the pain or suffering caused or undergone.

4. extreme anguish of body or mind; agony.

5. a cause of severe pain or anguish.

It looked like the guy was in excruciating pain, as he was gasping for air and informing the officer he couldn't breathe. The guy was already under control and started getting aggressive when the officer grabbed his head, imo, the pepper spray was unnecessary, having said that, using it seems like it meets the definition of cruelty. I'm not sure if you've ever experienced pepper spray, but look up some clips on youtube, it's painful.

Carthoris · Mar 26, 2013

tomahawk2406 said:
yeah that sucked but fuck man, why would you let it get that far? You break the law, you get caught. act like a fucking man. take it. jail is still fucking jail not a "safe environment for criminals to act as they please." ............sure did change his fucking attitude though.

Yep, getting a DUI or getting caught with a personal supply of weed gives the police the go ahead to pepper spray you while restrained and then psychologically torture you for half an hour. Fuck you.

ricky1lung · Mar 26, 2013

1) torture does not have a loose definition, and the us does not use torture, in any way. only by stretching and deforming the nature of the word torture to include any unpleasantness or coercion, even psychological pressure, can enhanced interrogations be called torture. your reasoning on this matter is crafted by propaganda all right, propaganda from YOUR SIDE, not from bush cheney or rumsfeld. Bwana Obama contionues the same methods, UN-ALTERED to this day, when he could stop it with an order to the joint chiefs. why has he not issued this order? because he doesnt think it's torture either. he just said it was torture during the campaign to get votes and support from the squeamish left and the peacniks and pacifists.

2) "it is now said..." but NOT by anyone who would be in a position to know. only those who were opposed to interrogation of any kind, and opposed to the war in any way.

3) "I dont think the rest of the world really bought into the Bush/Rummy/Cheney propaganda machine." nope they had their own propaganda machine, which allows such stunning insanity as Dominique Strauss Khan, Socialist, and International Banker to run for the presidency of France.... Think about that for a second, Socialist... and International Banker.... hypocrisy much? and such things are commonplace in europe and the rest of the world. ohh no, they didnt believe the bush propaganda machine, they had already used up all theyr credulioty swallowing the propaganda of the New Left and the New Socialists, and New Labour.

4) weapons of mass destruction also have a firmly established definition, both in general, and in specific to the cease fire treaty with iraq. saddam hussein was in violation of both definitions, and never abided by a single stipulation in the cease fire or the UN resolutions. if you think weapons of mass destruction were not found in iraq, consult your wikileaks for more information.

5) the economic collapse was all america's fault? hmmm... seems that some countries arent collapsing, only the ones who leveraged themselves into unsustainable debt. and america didnt force you euro-lefties into that position, you chose it all by yourselves.
playing the blame game may make you feel better, but it's still just self-delusion.

6) "America Bad" yeah we pretty much got that. you euro-lefties havent been terribly subtle on that score. it's a good thing we dont care what you think.

Lmao, Euro leffties? Im from a Country that is on top. The great white north. Im not European, I am Canadian, and our economy is just fine thanks.

I gave insight into what helped tarnish the rep of the US, the lies, the propaganda, the banking system and the BS.

If you dont think the US markets are not closely tied to global markets you are severely misguided. Not that I said the semi global collapse was
completely the US's fault.

So explain what the rest of the worlds propaganda machine was? (You know the coalition that went into Iraq under false pretences.)
We went, we fought, and we were all sure pissed off that we were lied to.

I guess you're in the know though, please do tell which WMD's that the bush admin made reference to were actually found.

Now wait, are you suggesting only a capitalist should run a bank? Yet more spin "Socialists Bad, Obama's a socialist Muslim, I hate socialized medicine. Yada yada yada.....

Dont try splitting hairs and defending actions with semantics.

Carthoris · Mar 26, 2013

Dr Kynes said:
1) torture does not have a loose definition, and the us does not use torture, in any way. only by stretching and deforming the nature of the word torture to include any unpleasantness or coercion, even psychological pressure, can enhanced interrogations be called torture. your reasoning on this matter is crafted by propaganda all right, propaganda from YOUR SIDE, not from bush cheney or rumsfeld. Bwana Obama contionues the same methods, UN-ALTERED to this day, when he could stop it with an order to the joint chiefs. why has he not issued this order? because he doesnt think it's torture either. he just said it was torture during the campaign to get votes and support from the squeamish left and the peacniks and pacifists.

2) "it is now said..." but NOT by anyone who would be in a position to know. only those who were opposed to interrogation of any kind, and opposed to the war in any way.

3) "I dont think the rest of the world really bought into the Bush/Rummy/Cheney propaganda machine." nope they had their own propaganda machine, which allows such stunning insanity as Dominique Strauss Khan, Socialist, and International Banker to run for the presidency of France.... Think about that for a second, Socialist... and International Banker.... hypocrisy much? and such things are commonplace in europe and the rest of the world. ohh no, they didnt believe the bush propaganda machine, they had already used up all theyr credulioty swallowing the propaganda of the New Left and the New Socialists, and New Labour.

4) weapons of mass destruction also have a firmly established definition, both in general, and in specific to the cease fire treaty with iraq. saddam hussein was in violation of both definitions, and never abided by a single stipulation in the cease fire or the UN resolutions. if you think weapons of mass destruction were not found in iraq, consult your wikileaks for more information.

5) the economic collapse was all america's fault? hmmm... seems that some countries arent collapsing, only the ones who leveraged themselves into unsustainable debt. and america didnt force you euro-lefties into that position, you chose it all by yourselves.
playing the blame game may make you feel better, but it's still just self-delusion.

6) "America Bad" yeah we pretty much got that. you euro-lefties havent been terribly subtle on that score. it's a good thing we dont care what you think.

Torture doesn't have a loose definition. You are right.

[h=2]Definition of TORTURE[/h]1
a : anguish of body or mind : agony
b : something that causes agony or pain

2
: the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure

3
: distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument : straining

Which definition does the actions in the video not meet?

Harrekin · Mar 26, 2013

Carthoris said:
Yep, getting a DUI or getting caught with a personal supply of weed gives the police the go ahead to pepper spray you while restrained and then psychologically torture you for half an hour. Fuck you.

Go quietly and they're usually pretty fucking cool actually.

Act the dick, they'll bring you in the unpleasant way.

Its not right or wrong, it's just how it is, most of them don't think weed is even bad, it's their job to arrest people tho.

Would you classify this as torture?

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