Effect of Defoliation on Yield - Skywalker OG indoor scrog

[OscarLaGrouch]

It may not be sophisticated and its definitely not done by the USDA. However, a scientific experiment is simple at its core:
All factors remain constant for the subject and control groups with the exception of the variable that tests your hypothesis. No PHD required. Grade school kids have figured this much out.

I won first place in every science fair i ever entered.
LOL

Pretty sure i can defend this especially since i am the only one who is biting this bullet.

No need as Chuck Estevez PH'd has confirmed that this is true, and has called us both dicks for not knowing this from birth!!

If you can grow outside then most training is probably a waste of time, it would be far easier just to let them grow au natural I agree. Growing indoors with limited light and space on the other hand is completely different in my opinion.

I have an issue with that article written by Robert Connell Clarke as it is full of conjecture and supposition, if you read the full article again carefully you'll see he uses the words might, could and may before stating what he believes are truths.

For example 'Premature removal of leaves may cause stunting, because the potential for photosynthesis is reduced.'

He doesn't appear to be speaking from a position of experience, which worries me if he is claiming to be an expert and writing articles on why you shouldn't remove leaves.

I still haven't seen any of this scientific evidence that Jorge Cevantes mentions which I think it quite strange, unless he is the only person to have seen it.

I've pretty much come to the conclusion that there isn't really much scientific evidence for either side if any at all, so some respect must be given to anyone willing to have a go and try to experiment. Even though I do agree that this isn't the most scientific of tests (no offence Oscar), at least he is having a go!

I wouldn't claim that any of my experiments with defoliation are 100% scientific, but they have thrown up some interesting results which I've never mentioned but have heard them repeated by other people who have defoliated. So some of these things have been replicated by other growers doing similar things, that in itself should have most scientists at least a little interested in why these things happen when you defoliate.

There is clearly a lot of misunderstanding between both sides, but until people are willing to stop arguing and try to discuss this matter in a civil manner we will still be arguing about it in 15 years time.

 

[OscarLaGrouch]

Interesting article in good old high times about leaves.

http://www.hightimes.com/read/nico’s-nuggets-understanding-anatomy-your-plants

I will def give this a read. thx.

 

[OscarLaGrouch]

I think that if this is true, the size difference of the top colas is negligible, and offset by the increase of total weight of the entire harvest, and for a commercial grower like me, that is more important than slightly larger colas. I may feel differently if I only grew for personal use. But again, I'm not convinced that it does hurt the top colas at all. I'm starting a new room in a couple of weeks with 24 WWxBB and 24 greenhouse seeds the doctor, I think that I will leave a couple of each unplugged and see how they do.

I will take measurements of each bud and table the data like a real researcher. haha. you guys are making me work.
I was just gonna weigh table A (defol) vs table B (control) but now we need data on SIZE.
SIZE DOES MATTER

 

[OscarLaGrouch]

that's dumb 2.......

Why? I have a two foot thick canopy full of giant colas.
#1 I don't want to get bud rot
#2 I want the plant to drain itself of metabolic resources so I have a nice white ash and no harsh chlorophyll smoke. the best way to do this is to gradually defol the last two weeks so you have fewer 'sources' or fan leaves to put nutrients back into the plant.
plants turn yellow and everybody wins. now nobody start fighting over this LOL

those bitches will be ready to trim and will dry faster

you know how the game go, she'll be mine by halftime
~Weezy F Babay

 

[OscarLaGrouch]

Just spoke w two friends of mine. One w fifteen years exp and one from humboldt w at least 25 yrs exp.
both agreed on and practice defol as set forth in this exp. humboldt guy thins everything day 15-17
And both guys thin canopy gradually over last two weeks.
40 years of experience agrees w me. These are not guys w two plants in a closet either.

 

[OscarLaGrouch]

that's dumb 2.......

Well the guys i am talking about have 40 yrs combined experience. I dont think they are 'dumb'; they do what they know to work. Concerned w quality and yield, they defol the last two weeks and after the first two weeks of flower. Scrog grows. Everything from OG to platinum rainbow sprinkle GSC.
I BELIEVE THEM.

 

[MrEDuck]

Well that was a lot to read through. Thanks for trying to set up a study with actual controls. It seems like a well designed experiment and I look forward to seeing the results. Not so much to reading another month and a half of folks arguing. Props to you for trying to test for yourself and doing so with a thought out experiment!

 

[waterdawg]

Interesting! Are you familiar with the Keyplex 350 DP product that came out of a big research SAR program commissioned with the USDA? I was recently gifted with 5 gals. of the stuff and am experimenting with it and sharing it with commercial nut/fruit producers and recently sent a sample to a fine greenhouse grower to play with. http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/may98/prot0598.htm

Well pin a rose on your nose lol. Again not nay or yay re: defoilation and honestly I have never done it with my outdoor plants because there was just way to many, but this was never meant to be scientific experiment!!! Anyway its to bad! I have yet to see any comparisons that show its a bad thing and thats the part I dont get? Are thier actual grows that you guys have done the show the effects over a period of time. I did two plants side by side last run (really shitty plants I admit lol). The one plant was stripped of any leaf that had a stem longer than one inch and honestly there was no difference that I could perceive, so I still have no clue lol. But I gotta say we do get worked up over this. Thats the part that just amazes me, but alas no one will tell me why lol. Sorry for stirring the pot Oscar!!! I missed abit and didnt get the post in before the poetry started lol. But I see the poetry was soon discarded for more slamming! I typically dont get involved in these defoilation threads and followed this one for the only reason that, here's a guy thats not saying its good, or bad really, just wants to see whats up. How could this turn into a, well, what it has turned into. And it did lol.

 

[OscarLaGrouch]

I am not saying yay or nay either. If table A has a lower total yield then we know an aggressive defol day 15 isnt great. The Haterz can say we told you so!
if its the same or close then no detrimental effects are noted. If its higher we know it might be great. 18 plants per table is a reasonable sample size.
I will replicate the experiment several times. A year from now we shpuld have some definitive data.
I may have to stop yanking leaves off my girls. Im cool with that.

We moved the haiku to a new thread.

Well pin a rose on your nose lol. Again not nay or yay re: defoilation and honestly I have never done it with my outdoor plants because there was just way to many, but this was never meant to be scientific experiment!!! Anyway its to bad! I have yet to see any comparisons that show its a bad thing and thats the part I dont get? Are thier actual grows that you guys have done the show the effects over a period of time. I did two plants side by side last run (really shitty plants I admit lol). The one plant was stripped of any leaf that had a stem longer than one inch and honestly there was no difference that I could perceive, so I still have no clue lol. But I gotta say we do get worked up over this. Thats the part that just amazes me, but alas no one will tell me why lol. Sorry for stirring the pot Oscar!!! I missed abit and didnt get the post in before the poetry started lol. But I see the poetry was soon discarded for more slamming! I typically dont get involved in these defoilation threads and followed this one for the only reason that, here's a guy thats not saying its good, or bad really, just wants to see whats up. How could this turn into a, well, what it has turned into. And it did lol.

 

[OscarLaGrouch]

you wont find any "growers" defoliating .......

 

[Thckingdom]

T

I said multiple times "you may be right" "we will see the results" "I just wanna try it out."
honestly, I feel they are right.
yet they are all hung up on their research lab heirarchy.
we are not even arguing with them. they are arguing with us.
fucking sad. time clock punchers.

my own father doesn't even talk to me like that.
they all kind of seem like angry old men frustrated that us happy young men won't just roll with the status quo and take their word for it. my ego would get butt hurt too, I guess.
but then I know how to talk to ppl to get results because I'm a charming mother fucker, and affable.

questionnaire
are you my boss? no
are you funding my little science project? no
are you mentoring me at my request? no
are the results gonna devastate your life? no
then be respectful to a fellow grower OR fuck the fuck off! your ego is not needed.

the only thing I read that really freaked me out about aggressive defoliation was the part about removing too much leaf matter disrupting the metabolic pathways and causing them to herm. THAT got my attention.

tell ya what, I'm gonna put in a call to Ed Rosenthal and see if I can get a quote.

yeah, I got them Cali Connections.

e

THC
lets not make anymore crazy claims about a 4 elbow indoor plant, ok?
32 colas x 60g each is 4.23 pounds is basically how it sounded to me and I was giving you the side eye myself

look what happened!

don't draw the rational but crazy crowd. shhhhhh

PM me if u like

Ok mate ill shhh they are not all 60g from 30 to 60 super cropping I only preach what I practice,love ask ed mate,but Kyle Kushman is a guy I followed for many years check him out

 

[Thckingdom]

Like I said pics or it didn't happen, I see maybe 3/4 oz colas and at best a dozen of them and some smaller ones. Your claim was (32) 30 -60 gram buds. Stop promoting this defoliation nonsense with made up numbers and bullshit science, especially to noobs who love to play with their plants which is all this really is, not botany. And yes like many here on this forum I do have degrees in biology and chemistry and worked for a fully paneled USDA research scientist for 7 years. Uncle Ben is spot on when he points out that actual scientists replicate their experiments under strict protocols regarding the technique, and observation that always involve triple redundancy and multiple trials. They are also subject to external monitoring and peer review by accomplished members of their respective fields (which you are getting right now from UB, Chuck and myself).

 

[OscarLaGrouch]

Looks like you may have to put a couple of plants aside to compare the defoliation in the last 2 weeks now....

Nah man. Thats another variable. Another experiment. One variable per trial.

Theoryefol that late in the game wont change much.

 

[a senile fungus]

Nah man. Thats another variable. Another experiment. One variable per trial.

Theoryefol that late in the game wont change much.

I'm sure you mean hypothesis???

 

[OscarLaGrouch]

I'm sure you mean hypothesis???

Same thing

 

[OscarLaGrouch]

Check back in july

Well that was a lot to read through. Thanks for trying to set up a study with actual controls. It seems like a well designed experiment and I look forward to seeing the results. Not so much to reading another month and a half of folks arguing. Props to you for trying to test for yourself and doing so with a thought out experiment!

 

[a senile fungus]

Same thing

Not to the scientific community

 

[OscarLaGrouch]

Not to the scientific community

briefly explain the difference between a scientific hypothesis and a scientific theory.?
Best Answer (Chosen by Voter)
Both refer to an *explanation* for some observed phenomenon.

However, a hypothesis is tentative, and has not been tested. In fact, there can be several competing hypotheses (explanations) for the same phenomenon, all of which can co-exist until some experiment can be designed to eliminate some of them to leave one hypothesis standing.

Once a hypothesis has undergone some testing, and is verified by considerable evidence beyond the phenomenon it was originally intended to explain, then we call it a theory.

A hypothesis can also be a proposed addition to a larger theory ... as a theory can grow in order to explain more and more phenomena. As long as the hypothesis is consistent with the other statements of the theory, then if that hypothesis is further confirmed, this strengthens the theory ... by adding to the body of evidence explained by the theory.

A theory is the highest status that an explanation can achieve. Some people mistakenly assume that a theory gets "proved" to become a "law" ... but this completely misunderstands how science works. A law (unlike a hypothesis or theory) is not an *explanation*, but rather a *description* of some phenomenon ... usually in the form "if condition X is true, then condition Y is also true" or "event Y will happen." Since *laws* are descriptive, and theories are *explanatory*, they are two completely different types of statement ... so a theory can never become a law, and a law can never become a theory.

 

[Uncle Ben]

Uncle Ben is spot on when he points out that actual scientists replicate their experiments under strict protocols regarding the technique, and observation that always involve triple redundancy and multiple trials. They are also subject to external monitoring and peer review by accomplished members of their respective fields (which you are getting right now from UB, Chuck and myself).

And don't forget what the 16 year old stoner with a Masters degree in botany once said.....

not to hijack the thread but I wanted to invite interested parties to an actual scientific experiment on the subject of defoliation.

https://www.rollitup.org/t/effect-of-defoliation-on-yield-skywalker-og-indoor-scrog.827202/

And just how scientific is it?

Perhaps you should do a poll. That will surely confirm the right or wrong, after all, there are scholars here who claim RC Clark and Jorge don't know squat...and if these scholars say it, it must be twue.

These defoliation threads are as predictable as the sun rising in the morning.

 

[Izoc666]

Poll is excellent idea, sir.