High Voltage Aeroponics

[CannaOnerStar]

Are you sure that the electric field doesent mess up the nutrient solution? I know some atomic forms of metals tend to clump up together when exposed to electromagnetic fields.

Your nutrient amount is measured by how well it conducts electricity, so the main nutrients being electrically conductive, could possibly make them also react to magnetic fields?

 

[fmx1988]

@DaFreak Well that pretty much sums up what I thought about the market too. It's almost like I would be doing myself a dis-service by offering good technology at a reasonable price when it's easier just to sell crap with loads of marketing haha If i was to ever launch into the hobbyist market, selling it cheap and advertising the plug n play aspect for new growers might be a better bet than advertising the benefits to more serious growers. The more I think about it, focusing only on commercial customers might be a better use of my time.

@CannaOnerStar It doesn't mess up the nutrient solution to any degree that I've experienced, but until I have the foliar nutritional analysis back from the trial grow report, I can't say with any accuracy what impact it does have on it. A lot of people think of electrolysis when they first here of my technology, which of cause would have a huge impact on the nutrient solution, but electrostatic charges induced onto the droplets for a short period of time, (which leaks off fairly quickly in the high humidity chamber) is a completely different scenario altogether. Still looking forwards to getting the report back though!

 

[DaFreak]

That would piss me off I would take the weed back an walk away

Didn’t happen to me, lol. I don’t have to deal with dime bags, a younger friend who does told me about it.

 

[CannaOnerStar]

CannaOnerStar It doesn't mess up the nutrient solution to any degree that I've experienced, but until I have the foliar nutritional analysis back from the trial grow report, I can't say with any accuracy what impact it does have on it. A lot of people think of electrolysis when they first here of my technology, which of cause would have a huge impact on the nutrient solution, but electrostatic charges induced onto the droplets for a short period of time, (which leaks off fairly quickly in the high humidity chamber) is a completely different scenario altogether. Still looking forwards to getting the report back though!

Okay, i dont know much about this, but just thought it could be a possibility. Its a cool project if it works(or even if it doesent ), but you know you might not want to shout out about stuff on internet if you plan on making a product out of it, unless ofc you got world wide patents on the technology.

 

[rkymtnman]

The more I think about it, focusing only on commercial customers might be a better use of my time.

i'm not commercial but give us an idea of what you estimate your system would cost for somebody like me:
i have a 3x4 ft bloom room and usually do 4 plants at a time . right now, i'm hooked on GH waterfarms that i run drain to waste.

 

[fmx1988]

Okay, i dont know much about this, but just thought it could be a possibility. Its a cool project if it works(or even if it doesent ), but you know you might not want to shout out about stuff on internet if you plan on making a product out of it, unless ofc you got world wide patents on the technology.

Well you thought along the right lines and it's definitely a question that came up a lot when i raised my first investment. Fortunately I've progressed a little since then and after proving the concept and getting my second investment, the only questions i get now is business strategy, market size and value to the customer! Which is a nice reassurance but sometimes a lot harder to answer haha Also I have already filed the patent application in the UK which allows me to expand that patent into other countries within a 12 month time frame under the Paris Convention. I still have to be careful though as there are other features we plan to get protected.

@rkymtnman Well I don't know how much I would sell it for without first thinking of a business strategy for this market, but based on the uncertain nature of everything, I think if I felt there is a possibility of entering the market, I might have a small batch of 20 products built and sell it at cost price, so I imagine somewhere in the region of £300.

So basically it's a complete plug n play system with precision water pump and timers built in with variable speed control to the rotary atomizer and flow rate so you have full control over mist coverage, droplet size, density and watering cycle. All you have to do is place it in the grow chamber with max size of 4x4ft, put the end of the tube in your nutrient solution, then plug it in and turn it on, and it will start working automatically.

We have different rotary atomizer designs that takes a few seconds to switch over for different spray patterns and an extendable tube that acts as a pedestal for the device to sit on so the user has more control over the position of the device relative to the roots.

I mean personally, I quite like it haha but I just don't think there is much of a market for a high end grow system, so perhaps, keeping it basic (but high quality) and selling it to newer growers at a lower cost might be a better strategy? But then surely, they would rather buy a complete grow kit instead?

 

[DaFreak]

Don’t built the timers in, need to replace them every few years. Everything on the system will fail at some point and should be easy to swap out.

 

[fmx1988]

Sorry I should have been more specific, the timers are programmed in the firmware of the electronics, so there's actually no physical components as such, but yes, I've tried to make everything as modular as possible for easy replacement of key parts.

 

[CannaOnerStar]

Well you thought along the right lines and it's definitely a question that came up a lot when i raised my first investment. Fortunately I've progressed a little since then and after proving the concept and getting my second investment, the only questions i get now is business strategy, market size and value to the customer! Which is a nice reassurance but sometimes a lot harder to answer haha Also I have already filed the patent application in the UK which allows me to expand that patent into other countries within a 12 month time frame under the Paris Convention. I still have to be careful though as there are other features we plan to get protected.

Okay cool. Im considering on starting a company with my friend to make some non cannabis oriented growing products products, altho at least one would be a sweet add on to cannabis grow setups and i also have few ideas for smaller cannabis growing accessories. This was basically a plan B for stuff i have planned for life, but its starting to seem more realistic and better than the plan A.

If you were able to make a smaller version of your product, it worked and the cost could be kept low enough(not much more than 100 dollars to end customer), it could fit nicely along with the products i have planned. And i have been thinking of finding some of this kind of product to sell along with my products to be able to offer more options for product packages covering all growing needs. i have been looking at autopots for now and they might fit my ideas better and would fit the price range i was thinking. But your product could might be better and would fit the high-tech idea of the product range a bit better than autopots, but autopots are cheap, effective and easy, which would also be nice. However im afraid to make it too high tech, especially if the high tech means that ignorant people not willing to learn too much cant use the products properly.

Or maybe it would be a good idea for you to also sell the guts of your product as a separate product that could be fitted to other systems? Maybe if your technology works and you could not offer the whole thing as mini version cheap enough, maybe you could sell just the guts that we could fit on a smaller form? Im just throwing out ideas, not wanting to buy one yet

Feel free to pm me(if you have enough posts) and want to talk more about this.

 

[fmx1988]

ahh sounds like you're a bit of an entrepreneur yourself then! I have thought about selling the guts of it, but i don't like the idea of making it a commodity and devaluing it in every other market I enter. It's easy to look at something and think it's only worth X amount based on the individual components and forget about the development time that goes into it. With that said, if it makes commercial sense and enough volume is sold to compensate for the smaller profit margins, than obviously it's something to consider.

To give you an idea of some of the key components ('guts'), I've included a picture (without the high voltage stuff or housing etc) of the more technical necessities that would be required for someone to adapt my technology into their own grow system that they wish to sell. I could have these manufactured in medium to large quantities and distribute to select partner for them to adapt to their grow system. And with the right quantities, i could even modify some of the key parts for them too.



I have already discussed this strategy with my investor, and it really comes down to the quantities involved, potential risk, brand image and profit margins. Even if i was successful in teaming up with some of the large companies and sold 1000 per month, is it really worth it for 10% profit when you take into account all the risk and logistics involved of such large numbers and the potential devaluation of the tech when it becomes a commodity?

However, the one thing I really like about this plan, is the fact that it allows other manufacturers to worry about the implementation of it and dealing with customers etc etc, and allows me to focus strictly on the gut's of the technology and continually improve the quality, reliability, and ultimately, growth rates. And with it being wifi and bluetooth enabled, there's always the option to sell the key components to manufacturers at cost price, and we make the money back through the software instead. But again, it depends on how many users would want to pay for such a service etc.

There's definitely alot to think about!! But i'm up for chatting in private... i'm sure i can learn a lot just from chatting with a fellow grower

 

[Larry3215]

No need to apologize, I really appreciate any feedback - even if it hurts my ego! haha

Well I have already filed the patent application for the key aspects of the rotary atomizer and high voltage electric fields, but there are other aspects which we are in the process of filing for, so you are right in thinking I can't disclose everything at this stage. However it will only be a matter of weeks before I can start talking in-depth about everything, which is a fairly small amount of time in comparison to time it's taken to get this far.

I wish it was as easy as proving good yields and pretty plants, but I think success in the hobbyist market will be a lot more difficult than that - not just to sell a few, but to actually achieve a level of saturation within the market that makes it worthwhile. I really don't want to rely on marketing to sell products all the time, but to eventually become known as a real alternative to conventional Aeroponics which are unreliable and complicated.

To give you some insight into the technology so far, I could give you my company website details which covers a lot of the basics, but i don't know if that's allowed on this site? However, I'm happy to share some of the more tech stuff with you, that you won't find on my website (perhaps Atomizer may be interested in this too?).

So for instance, rotary atomizers are definitely noisy in general, unless of course you design it not to be so the key here was optimizing the rotary atomizer to use as little rpm as possible (velocity is the most in-efficient way of achieving our goal) and shaping the rotary atomizer to physically push the droplets in all the directions you want and using fan blades to compliment this action (not depend on it). Reducing turbulence within the airflow is by far the hardest part of this project btw!

I also needed to incorporate the rotary atomizer into the design of the custom built motor so that we could have a large enough hollow shaft that allowed for an inner and outer shaft composed of the right materials to allow for motor efficiency, electrostatic charging of the droplets and for the liquid to travel to the atomizer. I than built a FOC motor controller that is in tune with the motor and produces a sinusoidal wave to reduce motor noise/heat and increase efficiency.

I'm really happy with the end result, but the aim is provide a real alternative to Aeroponics which is easy to use, but also much more reliable. So for instance, to help improve the reliability of the system, we measure the back EMF, inertia and friction of the motor to help predict any issues, such as, if the motor has fluctuations in friction/speed in the start up phase, (which is invisible to the naked eye), the firmware will track this inconsistency over time and will notify the user. There's many other features to help reliability, but I've already wrote an essay so far haha

I would be interested in learning about the problems you and Atomizer had that's prevented you from experimenting with rotary atomizers - maybe I could help provide some insight?

Thanks for that. Lots of tidbits in there to comment on. The hollow shaft is one idea I considered, but I dont have any good way to adapt any of the brushless motors I have to work that way. Are you using composite shafts? I cant think of any other way to isolate the motor/controller from the hi voltage?

I have motors and controllers from 10 watts to 10KW, but no longer have access to a machine shop. All my stuff is from a few decades of building and flying electric models. If you are using custom built motors, controllers, and other circuitry, this is not going to be a cheap item for a hobby grower. I dont know of many hobby growers that can, or want to invest that kind of money. I cant imagine you would ever be able to sell these in large numbers to small growers, so I dont see how you can get any kind of economy of scale.

I cant imagine a system for commercial growing will work for a hobby grower, so how will you manage that?

Im also curious what size root chambers this will work in? Whats the smallest size chamber and how do you scale it up to larger chambers with more plants?

For example, I have room for a 2'x3'x4' tall grow tent. My AA root chamber is about 55 gallons and takes up roughly 2'x3'x30" under the work bench my tent sits on. The chamber is 24" in diameter x about 29" tall. That chamber fill up almost completely if I grow even one sativa with a long grow cycle. Thats one reason I have gone to autos - much shorter grow cycles and smaller root masses. I still cant do more than three plants at a time or the chamber gets too full.

If your system using low rpm, that means you will need a large diameter disk. Will it fit in my space and leave room for any plants? Rotary atomization is a function of disk diameter and rpm - more of either equals small droplets.

What about someone with more room? What is the design chamber size for a single disk and how many plants do you see it holding comfortably?

I could keep asking questions all night but, that enough for now

EDIT: I missed some posts, so you answered some of these questions.

One more question - what range of flow rates will the basic model you show be capable of?

 

[fmx1988]

Yeah i actually tried composite shafts to begin with but it was hard to get the tight tolerances required for the size/shape of the shaft that I needed and although it was achievable, the end result wasn't particularly good for various reason. After many failed attempts down this route, I actually went down a different route which required using a selection of different materials within the shaft and the high voltage electrode component (not shown in pic) that attaches to the base of the motor. I found this was a good compromise with the additional manufacturing complexity for consistency and performance in the final product.

The hobbyist and commercial system is two different systems altogether but uses the same guts for the core of the technology. The only reason why i have a prototype that is suitable for the hobbyist market is not because it was a market i planned to enter, but because it was easier/quicker to develop to such a degree i was able to prove the concept to investors and show i was capable of building something to a high quality.

The rotary atomizer would definitely work in a grow chamber such as yours, but you are right in thinking that you would need space around the roots in order for the mist to propagate throughout the chamber, but it's no different to any other decent Aeroponic system. The only difference is i would suggest the roots always remain slightly above the device. This means the height of the root chamber should be a minimum height that is appropriate for the plants you are growing. It's not necessary, but its a technique I would recommend and also the appropriate spacing of the roots would enforce the general concept of not packing your plants too close together which a mistake a lot of newbies make, thinking that more plants is always better! Yet it's so, so wrong lol

In general, you are completely right about the function of disk diameter and RPM (and flow-rate too), but that's really only because of the shearing of droplets from the air differential produced by this, so it's possible to add in characteristics to the rotary atomizer to influence this and this is where a lot of the creative work has been focused when researching and developing this. In the pic, the rotary atomizer is actually one of the very first designs i created to give you an idea, but it's actually somewhat different now.

In regards to pricing, a lot of the up front capital has gone into the software side of things, so it may be that i can separate this cost from a basic version of the product to sell in mass quantities for a low price, and sale the cloud-app/mobile app with all the advanced features for an additional price.. so as an example, £229 for a complete plug n play system, and then £99 for the software/app for the people who wants more control.

Either way, I can't imagine being able to sell the complete plug n play system for less than £229 even if it were to sell in much larger quantities, and if the product was only marketable to a small group of keen enthusiasts within the growing industry, than obviously that price would rise much more significantly e.g. £500! At that point, it probably wouldn't even be worth thinking about haha

 

[fmx1988]

ooh also, in regards to flow rate, the pump can go as low as you want and up to a maximum of about 800 ml per min... i will be tinkering with different settings and different grow systems soon so i can plan a suitable 'safe' range for the software... don't think anyone would be particularly happy if they accidentally set it to 1 ml per minute

 

[SuperiorBuds]

Adding technology to a grow can be beneficial, but only up to a certain point. After that you're not really adding benefits, just complexity. I feel like this falls into that category.

I'm in the process of building our commercial facility and I can tell you that even if you can prove ROI you will have a major uphill battle to win over any commercial producers. To this day there are still major facilities using HPS because of the cost of switching to LED -- and that's a proven technology with years of research and backing. One of the first things I did when planning our facility is look for cost savings and reducing points of failure -- adding expensive unproven technology would never happen.

It seems every time someone goes to HPA they dig up the old NASA research claiming that it's the holy grail. Well NASA is growing lettuce in zero-g -- we're trying to grow large fruiting plants under gravity, that changes everything when you're talking about mist hang-times. Does it work? Sure, I've got a fully documented HPA build and 3 grow cycles using a $3000 build-out for 3 plants at a time. But is it worth it? What I found was there was a lot of added complexity, extra daily maintenance, and in the end more headaches for the same (or less) yield.

In the world of growing weed it's about yield and effort, and unfortunately I don't feel like you'll be solving either of those.

 

[Galvatron1]

Isn't this just a complicated version of a fogger?

 

[fmx1988]

Adding technology to a grow can be beneficial, but only up to a certain point. After that you're not really adding benefits, just complexity. I feel like this falls into that category.

I'm in the process of building our commercial facility and I can tell you that even if you can prove ROI you will have a major uphill battle to win over any commercial producers. To this day there are still major facilities using HPS because of the cost of switching to LED -- and that's a proven technology with years of research and backing. One of the first things I did when planning our facility is look for cost savings and reducing points of failure -- adding expensive unproven technology would never happen.

It seems every time someone goes to HPA they dig up the old NASA research claiming that it's the holy grail. Well NASA is growing lettuce in zero-g -- we're trying to grow large fruiting plants under gravity, that changes everything when you're talking about mist hang-times. Does it work? Sure, I've got a fully documented HPA build and 3 grow cycles using a $3000 build-out for 3 plants at a time. But is it worth it? What I found was there was a lot of added complexity, extra daily maintenance, and in the end more headaches for the same (or less) yield.

In the world of growing weed it's about yield and effort, and unfortunately I don't feel like you'll be solving either of those.

Thanks for your insight, I can tell you know your stuff The whole HPS Vs LED lighting is definitely an interesting lesson into consumer dynamics and one of which, I have referenced many times to potential investors when explaining the friction we may have when introducing the technology into the market place. Fortunately we have already got a fair bit of traction within the commercial sector (seed potatoes and commercial greenhouses) from interested parties here in the UK for trial grows. It was just a case of working with them to understand their requirements so we could adapt the technology and business strategy to their needs! I should note however that the commercial version of the technology is considerably different in the implementation of it and uses a more advanced setup overall.

I really appreciate your feedback in regards to your impression of the hobbyist plug n play version i'm thinking of possibly launching. I find it very helpful to receive such well explained critisms of the technology and potential market.

I'm trying not to introduce unnecessary complexities into the product without ensuring there is a benefit to it. As complicated as it may sound, there are really only 4 main key parts to the product - the rotary atomiser, water pump, high voltage module and electronics board. Each of which are completely modular and easy to replace.

However from a user's point of view, you really only have one device that you place in the center of the root chamber and plug in... It takes a maximum of 30s to install assuming they already have a grow chamber setup. This eliminates all the fuss with setting up pipes, connectors, water pumps, filters and timers common with all other hydroponic systems. The initial setup for this system is virtually fool proof in comparison to any other DIY system.

I suppose, you could think of the battery backup supply, water sensor and mobile app as unnecessary complexities... but from a user's point of view, they are just features built into the device with no concern to them, until of course, they alert them to a power cut or empty water tank and potentially save their crop.

I guess the high-voltage aspect is unnecessary to some people... but I personally see alot of potential for experimentation there. If it breaks, it won't be a liability for your plants, the product will continue working like normal. If however the user wants to experiment with different voltages, it's easy to do via the app within a range of 0v to 3000v (don't worry, it's only micro amps). Also able to combine this with the variable flow-rate and atomiser speed to achieve different charge to mass ratios of the droplets - which is also easy to do via app.

I suppose the next concern in the quest for simplicity would be the unnecessary complexity of connecting the device to the mobile app. Fortunately I was able to program the device to start working immediately with predefined settings when you switch it on. So there's no requirement for anyone to use the app if they wish.

But I guess all of these product features I'm trying to justify is meaningless if the actual growing method used is difficult, high maintenance or low yielding. However from my experience, all grow methods have their pros and cons, and it's about learning the details of your chosen system and adapting your techniques to maximize results.

True Aeroponics when done properly, definitely has the potential to yield more than any other system. Yet I see many people trying and failing to achieve the same yields in this grow method compared to the simpler methods of growing, so automatically assumes that this method of growing is inferior. The truth is, when you take the essence of what you are trying to achieve in true Aeroponics, it's actually very simple, but unfortunately the current methods to achieve it is complicated, high maintenance, and unreliable. This has caused many growers to encounter problems whilst growing and not achieving the yields they hoped for.

If you forget about the cons of Aeroponics for one sec and focus on the pros, you will be surprised at just how many unique benefits Aeroponics has compared to any other system and with a bit of creative thinking, has alot of potential that is yet to be unlocked.

 

[DaFreak]

I’ve said this many times, you are not going to have true Aeroponics the second the roots hit the container, turns into a nft and if the roots make it to the Rez a version of dwc. By definition Aeroponics the roots are suspended, no such system with weed.

 

[fmx1988]

I’ve said this many times, you are not going to have true Aeroponics the second the roots hit the container, turns into a nft and if the roots make it to the Rez a version of dwc. By definition Aeroponics the roots are suspended, no such system with weed.

Yeah I'm sure everyone understands that already quite easy to sort that out bud. Needless to say if you want to grow bigger plants, you really shouldn't be using Aeroponics anyway

 

[DaFreak]

True Aeroponics when done properly, definitely has the potential to yield more than any other system.

And you would know this because......? Did you not say that you have never grown cannabis? Or was it cannabis with your patented atomizer? You come in here with complete inexperience and roll your eyes at people who have made millions doing this for decades. Hope you stick around long enough to report what I already know is going to happen. That your "invention" won't increase yield or save growers any money, in fact anybody who tries it would grow more weed with a pot and medium.

 

[fmx1988]

And you would know this because......? Did you not say that you have never grown cannabis? Or was it cannabis with your patented atomizer? You come in here with complete inexperience and roll your eyes at people who have made millions doing this for decades. Hope you stick around long enough to report what I already know is going to happen. That your "invention" won't increase yield or save growers any money, in fact anybody who tries it would grow more weed with a pot and medium.

I haven't done a trial grow with cannabis with this system yet... not sure why you would assume I'm inexperienced though as I have 15 years experience.

The only person I've rolled my eyes to is you, so not sure which 'people' you're referring to or why it's relevant how much money has been made? The only reason why I rolled my eyes is because I gave a fairly informative post and you reply with something unrelated to what I specifically said to show off your expert knowledge with basic common knowledge whilst simultaneously trying to insinuate I'm too dumb (or as you say, completely inexperienced) to even know this basic information you've had to say many times before.

I'm all up for hearing critisms, opinions and advice, good and bad, but your messages always have some negative connotation attached to them to highlight how superior you are and how 'inexperienced' and 'stupid' I am. Hence the reason why you also felt the need to highlight that you made 'millions' without realising there's a chance I'm still worth more than you.

But yes I have done true Aeroponics before, and yes, I've also used pretty much every other kind of system too. Doesn't make much difference to my post in relation to complexities within the product and user experience though.