here we go with the jew hating

[RickWhite]

My position is that Democracy in that region is absolutely essential to pulling the Middle east out of the 15th century

I believe that the claiming of land on the basis of religion and prophecy holds no merit

When we look back at the history of, for example, North America

It is obvious that settlers violently took land away from those who were here prior to them

We accept now that the way our ancestors acted was wrong

That essentially invading a country and taking advantage of its people is not a moral thing to do

The same way we accept Germany invading Poland and placing people of a certain religion in internment camps is not a moral thing to do

History has granted us the ability to actively make the distinction between moral and immoral behaviour

So yes, I personally believe the way in which Israel was granted to the Jewish people does reflect as immoral and therefore I choose not to support it

For the same reasons I choose not to support Arab - Muslim countries who would see the Jewish people wiped off the planet and still engage in many immoral behaviours

The demonization of Israel is largely because of circumstance

The reason I say this is because in modern times, where people have access to many different types of media, there is much more accountability than centuries ago when North America was taken from the Natives

I believe that a people has the right not to be persecuted based on religion or ethnicity as has happened to the Jewish people throughout history

However they have tried to assure sovereignty through unjust means

Where do you get this idiotic notion that the entire claim the Israelis have to their land is religious? Are you seriously trying to argue they have no other claim to a land they have occupied for thousands of years?

And why are you comparing an invasion to Jews living in their historic home land? You do know that the Israelis were not an invading force don't you? Do you know the history of the region at all? Do you know that the Arabs that had been persecuting the Jews in that region for centuries were given many times more land that was given to the Israelis. You know they were offered quite a bit of land that is now Israel and all of what is now Jordan? And did you know there never was a Palestinian state - they were all nomadic tribes living in small undeveloped villages.

Here is what Mark Twain wrote upon visiting the region in 1867.

"..... A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds... a silent mournful expanse.... a desolation.... we never saw a human being on the whole route.... hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country." (The Innocents Abroad, p. 361-362)​

Also of interest:

"The 1844 census of Jerusalem found 7120 Jews...5760 Muslims...3390 Christians."


Do you know how the refuge problem began? Did you know that when they tried to divide the land the Jews accepted and the Arabs rejected it and chose war? Did you know that when Israel became a country they offered full citizenship to all Arabs living in their borders? Did you know that the other Arab leaders urged the Palestinians to reject this offer and instead to vacate Israel so that the Arabs could wage war?

What they did next, after they failed, was to issue an order to all Arab leaders not to absorb the refugees so that they be canon fodder from that point froward. The one country that ignored this edict and allowed them to immigrate was Jordan and the Palestinians returned the favor by waging war on their host nation. I bet you didn't know that.

But I am curious. Regardless of the history of the region, you understand that Israel is now an industrialized country of 7.5 million right?

So, what you are saying is that the existence of this country of 7.5 million is "immoral" in your words and therefore has no right to exist.

Aside from the obvious question of what you do with the people, I ask you again what other country you feel has no right to exist?

Does the US also have no right to exist because we took the land by force? What about Pakistan which was violently wrenched out of India? What about Iran which was Persia until not that long ago? In fact, every country on Earth was taken by force at one time or another. What about Australia which was taken from the Aborigines in the 1880's or New Zealand which was taken from the Maoris also in the 1880's?

What other countries do you feel have no right to exist?

 

[CrackerJax]

There you go with those darn FACTS Rick.... what the heck is wrong with you!!!

Post 121 ... accurate.

Look past ur bigotry folks..... get past the religion.....that's the wedge, but not the reason.

 

[Near]

latest headline on drudge

NYT THURSDAY: Obama administration says support of Israel to be 'balanced against other interests'... Developing...


this guy is literally reversing every solid relationship we ever had. what happens when we need some help? who will help us? the muslums? seriously, who will be our ally?

Perhaps the dumbest OP I've ever seen.

What relationships is he destroying? What has he done to Israel that has been so awful? You make such stupid assumptions based off of a mere headline. And don't people of your political persuasion usually distrust the New York Times?

I love how you speak of the "muslums" as if they are all our enemy. Besides, there are more people in the world than just Jews and Muslims. You act as if they're our only options in terms of allies.

 

[CrackerJax]

Everything is a surprise to NEAR.....

Huh? whas happenin? wha?

 

[Patrick Bateman]

Where do you get this idiotic notion that the entire claim the Israelis have to their land is religious? Are you seriously trying to argue they have no other claim to a land they have occupied for thousands of years?

And why are you comparing an invasion to Jews living in their historic home land? You do know that the Israelis were not an invading force don't you? Do you know the history of the region at all? Do you know that the Arabs that had been persecuting the Jews in that region for centuries were given many times more land that was given to the Israelis. You know they were offered quite a bit of land that is now Israel and all of what is now Jordan? And did you know there never was a Palestinian state - they were all nomadic tribes living in small undeveloped villages.

Here is what Mark Twain wrote upon visiting the region in 1867.

"..... A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds... a silent mournful expanse.... a desolation.... we never saw a human being on the whole route.... hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country." (The Innocents Abroad, p. 361-362)​

Also of interest:

"The 1844 census of Jerusalem found 7120 Jews...5760 Muslims...3390 Christians."


Do you know how the refuge problem began? Did you know that when they tried to divide the land the Jews accepted and the Arabs rejected it and chose war? Did you know that when Israel became a country they offered full citizenship to all Arabs living in their borders? Did you know that the other Arab leaders urged the Palestinians to reject this offer and instead to vacate Israel so that the Arabs could wage war?

What they did next, after they failed, was to issue an order to all Arab leaders not to absorb the refugees so that they be canon fodder from that point froward. The one country that ignored this edict and allowed them to immigrate was Jordan and the Palestinians returned the favor by waging war on their host nation. I bet you didn't know that.

But I am curious. Regardless of the history of the region, you understand that Israel is now an industrialized country of 7.5 million right?

So, what you are saying is that the existence of this country of 7.5 million is "immoral" in your words and therefore has no right to exist.

Aside from the obvious question of what you do with the people, I ask you again what other country you feel has no right to exist?

Does the US also have no right to exist because we took the land by force? What about Pakistan which was violently wrenched out of India? What about Iran which was Persia until not that long ago? In fact, every country on Earth was taken by force at one time or another. What about Australia which was taken from the Aborigines in the 1880's or New Zealand which was taken from the Maoris also in the 1880's?

What other countries do you feel have no right to exist?

I get the notion it is largely based on religion....because it is.....

Look at some of the essential Zionist concepts:

Aliyah - return to the holy land, major component of many Jewish Prayers

In the Halakha, it is said only Jews and non-Jews (a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew) have the right to assisted immigration to Israel

The prophecy in the Torah that the Israelis will return to their homeland

A largley held orthodox/traditional Jewish belief that Israel was given to the ancient Israelites by god

lol I don't give a shit about what Mark Twain said tbh, large parts of the USA look like what he described

1922 British Census of Palestine: 589 177 Muslims, 83 790 Jews, 71 464 Christians

And you are somehow trying to argue that Jews were not an invading force, yet it is well documented and accepted that they were

Those Jewish paramilitary forces brought their guns ammunition for nothing?

Have you ever noticed a difference between where the borders are today as compared to where they were during the initial UN partition plan?

And no, I didn't know Israel was industrialized, lol

Yes, I did know the majority of what you posted and what I had not known didn't change my view

Arabs have historic ties with the land as well, how do you argue against that?

The Jewish people have historic ties with Israel, just as the Natives of North America have ties with the land we now occupy, therefore I again propose you do as the Arabs are being forced to do and return your land to its rightful owner

 

[CrackerJax]

Because it is.... now that is some critical thinking there!!!


Easily fooled and stubborn to boot. A perfect fit.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

lol Why don't you refute some of my points?

Oh wait, CrackerJax commenting on something he knows nothing about?

I'll just wait for RickWhite to post and then back him up, that'll show em!

 

[CrackerJax]

I actually agree with your post. Israel has EVERY right to exist. They HAVE taken a desolate land and turned it into a veritable paradise.

Which is EXACTLY why I reject the religious context. That's just the "public" face of the issue. The real issue is $$$$ and jealousy mixed in with a bit of 1967 humiliation. But it's hard to whip ppl up on economics...when the country telling you how Israel is bad, and ppl can only see what an amazing place they have turned it into. All without oil.... it's a contrast the Arabs are reluctant to expose...and for good reason.

It isn't about religion...that's just the recruitment jive. They know their base.

It helps to know your history.... the Arabs sided with the Nazis, and that obviously didn't get them much sympathy. History doesn't happen in a vacuum. It isn't perfect either.

But hurling missiles into civilian populations is NOT a way to protest. Make no mistake, Hamas/Hezbollah, Syria, Iran.... they don't want to share Israel, they want it GONE.

It's a constant reminder to Arabs of something they COULD have, but don't, and the Arab leaders will do ANYTHING to deflect the ppl from thinking that.

 

[RickWhite]

I get the notion it is largely based on religion....because it is.....

Look at some of the essential Zionist concepts:

Aliyah - return to the holy land, major component of many Jewish Prayers

In the Halakha, it is said only Jews and non-Jews (a child and a grandchild of a Jew, the spouse of a Jew, the spouse of a child of a Jew and the spouse of a grandchild of a Jew) have the right to assisted immigration to Israel

The prophecy in the Torah that the Israelis will return to their homeland

A largley held orthodox/traditional Jewish belief that Israel was given to the ancient Israelites by god

lol I don't give a shit about what Mark Twain said tbh, large parts of the USA look like what he described

1922 British Census of Palestine: 589 177 Muslims, 83 790 Jews, 71 464 Christians

And you are somehow trying to argue that Jews were not an invading force, yet it is well documented and accepted that they were

Those Jewish paramilitary forces brought their guns ammunition for nothing?

Have you ever noticed a difference between where the borders are today as compared to where they were during the initial UN partition plan?

And no, I didn't know Israel was industrialized, lol

Yes, I did know the majority of what you posted and what I had not known didn't change my view

Arabs have historic ties with the land as well, how do you argue against that?

The Jewish people have historic ties with Israel, just as the Natives of North America have ties with the land we now occupy, therefore I again propose you do as the Arabs are being forced to do and return your land to its rightful owner

WTF are you even talking about? We all know Israel is at the core of Judaism. That doesn't mean religion is the ONLY argument for Israel. This is the major argument



This is the major argument:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Jump to: navigation, search

Weizmann Institute of Science, Rehovot



Science and technology in Israel is one of the country's most developed sectors. The percentage of Israelis engaged in scientific and technological inquiry, and the amount spent on research and development (R&D) in relation to gross domestic product (GDP), is amongst the highest in the world.[1]Israel ranks fourth in the world in scientific activity as measured by the number of scientific publications per million citizens. Israel's percentage of the total number of scientific articles published worldwide is almost 10 times higher than its percentage of the world's population.[2]
Israeli scientists have contributed to the advancement of agriculture, computer sciences, electronics, genetics, medicine, optics, solar energy and various fields of engineering. Israel is home to major players in the high-tech industry and has one of the world's most technologically-literate populations.[3] In 1998, Tel Aviv was named by Newsweek as one of the ten most technologically influential cities in the world.[4]

Now you are saying that all this should be bulldozed because the Arabs who refuse to live prosperity in a land ruled by Jews claims that their great, great grandfather had a 150 square foot mud adobe where all those skyscrapers are now standing? Explain how the fuck that would play out in any resonable court. What exactely is fair compensation for said mud hut? And di you know, most of that land was in fact purchased. See this link about land ownership in Israel.

http://www.meforum.org/370/can-arabs-buy-land-in-israel

And I still await your answer about what other countries have no right to exist.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

WTF are you even talking about? We all know Israel is at the core of Judaism. That doesn't mean religion is the ONLY argument for Israel. This is the major argument

View attachment 890894

This is the major argument:

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Jump to: navigation, search

Weizmann Institute of Science, Rehovot



Science and technology in Israel is one of the country's most developed sectors. The percentage of Israelis engaged in scientific and technological inquiry, and the amount spent on research and development (R&D) in relation to gross domestic product (GDP), is amongst the highest in the world.[1]Israel ranks fourth in the world in scientific activity as measured by the number of scientific publications per million citizens. Israel's percentage of the total number of scientific articles published worldwide is almost 10 times higher than its percentage of the world's population.[2]
Israeli scientists have contributed to the advancement of agriculture, computer sciences, electronics, genetics, medicine, optics, solar energy and various fields of engineering. Israel is home to major players in the high-tech industry and has one of the world's most technologically-literate populations.[3] In 1998, Tel Aviv was named by Newsweek as one of the ten most technologically influential cities in the world.[4]

Now you are saying that all this should be bulldozed because the Arabs who refuse to live prosperity in a land ruled by Jews claims that their great, great grandfather had a 150 square foot mud adobe where all those skyscrapers are now standing? Explain how the fuck that would play out in any resonable court. What exactely is fair compensation for said mud hut? And di you know, most of that land was in fact purchased. See this link about land ownership in Israel.

http://www.meforum.org/370/can-arabs-buy-land-in-israel

And I still await your answer about what other countries have no right to exist.

Please stop copy pasting once again, articulating facts helps prove you know what you are talking about

So let me get this straight,

The main argument for Israel's existence are its contributions to the scientific community

And religion is a much more minor justification

And when arguing for its foundation, historical Jewish ties to the land are valid whereas Arab ties are not

Final Answer?

lol

As for countries not having the right to exist

I already answered that in my prior post

Although I don't think I worded it well so I will try again

Israel will continue to exist, as will the other countries and regions taken by force

I have no opposition to its existence but just as the history of many current countries are looked back upon as having dark elements

What it is doing today, slowly pushing its border outward, destroying Arab communities to build their own settlements, shelling Arab communities

Should be regarded as criminal

They have not even admitted they have Nuclear Weapons for fuck's sake

And you want to claim that this is some innocent state with nothing to hide?

 

[londonfog]

Jews ...which ones..the real jews or the ones that claim to be.. HiStory is a Motherphucker

 

[RickWhite]

Please stop copy pasting once again, articulating facts helps prove you know what you are talking about

So let me get this straight,

The main argument for Israel's existence are its contributions to the scientific community

And religion is a much more minor justification

And when arguing for its foundation, historical Jewish ties to the land are valid whereas Arab ties are not

Wrong. The main argument for Israel's existence is that it exists. The fact that the Jews turned undeveloped land into what it is today definitely strengthens their claim to it in a pragmatic sense. The reason the Arabs have no claim to it is because they had an opportunity to live there in peace and they chose war. When you choose war, that is what you get.

Final Answer?

lol

As for countries not having the right to exist

I already answered that in my prior post

Although I don't think I worded it well so I will try again

Israel will continue to exist, as will the other countries and regions taken by force

I have no opposition to its existence but just as the history of many current countries are looked back upon as having dark elements

I see, so you don't acknowledge their right to exist and not to have rockets lobbed into their neighborhoods or their children blown up in pizza parlors, but you recognize that they will go on to exist.

And of course while you are quite outspoken with regard to Israel, you are not similarly outspoken when it comes to an other country. I hate to break it to you but that does in fact make you an anti-Semite.

What it is doing today, slowly pushing its border outward, destroying Arab communities to build their own settlements, shelling Arab communities

Should be regarded as criminal

While it is true that the Israelis continuing to build apartments in the West Bank does exacerbate the problem, remember that the land was taken as a spoil of war chosen by the Arabs - there is no obligation to return it. And it is utterly false that the Israelis are destroying Arab neighborhoods. Stop putting your anti-Semitic spin on it and get it straight already. The Israelis only raze houses of those caught committing terrorist acts. It is a complete fabrication to suggest that they are razing the homes of innocent Arabs.

They have not even admitted they have Nuclear Weapons for fuck's sake

And you want to claim that this is some innocent state with nothing to hide?

What I am claiming is that you are a Jew hating bigot. You can deny it all you want but the fact is you hold special criticism of Israel that you have for no other countries even when they are more guilty of what you claim and that makes you an anti-Semite.

Another thing that proves you are an anti-Semite is that you really have no knowledge of the Arab-Israeli conflict. Everything you have said comes straight from Arab propaganda and you ignore all the true facts of the matter.

The facts are, if the Arabs were to lay down their arms, there would be no more war. If Israel was to lay down their arms, there would be no Israel. This is an inescapable fact that you ignore.

And I find it quite telling that you get upset when I past facts into the debate - obviously you have no use for them.

 

[Patrick Bateman]

The main argument for Israel's existence is that it exists. The fact that the Jews turned undeveloped land into what it is today definitely strengthens their claim to it in a pragmatic sense

As simple as this sounds, this is actually a very effective argument

I guess I am sort of caught in the past and maybe I give unfair weight to that aspect of Israel's history

That was an excellent post Rick, actually got me thinking

That being said, I think that some of Israel's practices today are questionable including building apartments in East Jerusalem and such

In all honesty I am not an anti semite, I have many Jewish friends

I may disagree with you on certain things about Israel, but you have definitely shed some light

 

[RickWhite]

Glad to hear it.

 

[CrackerJax]

The Israelis only desire to be left alone and not have their ppl fired upon while trying to live their lives in a Democracy.

Democracy is an ugly word in the Middle east.

 

[Near]

Everything is a surprise to NEAR.....

Huh? whas happenin? wha?

Says the guy who was confused for 3 pages because he misread something.

The Israelis only desire to be left alone and not have their ppl fired upon while trying to live their lives in a Democracy.

You speak as if they're totally innocent.

 

[Dankdude]

What the hardcore right wingers woul like to say.......Aufmerksamkeit Juden ist es Crystal Nacht!!!!

 

[RickWhite]

What the hardcore right wingers woul like to say.......Aufmerksamkeit Juden ist es Crystal Nacht!!!!

Your mama!

 

[abe23]

Rick...in your book, is there anything someone can legitimately criticize israel for without being an anti-semite? The policy with regard to the settlers, the disproportionate response to hamas and their toy rockets and turning gaza into an open air prison are all things I have serious reservations about. Even if it's the Palestinians who create a lot of the problems that have turned the peace process upside down, the crazy israeli right-wingers are just as big of an obstacle to peace. Sharon was the only with the gravitas and the testicles to confront them and I'm afraid that unless he wakes from his coma or someone else picks up where he left off, there really isn't going to be much progress....

 

[medicineman]

Netanyahu will start the war to end all wars. Just my opinion. I saw this dude a few years back in his first stint as prime minister of Israel. I was very surprised he didn't do it then. He will get his chance soon. The right wingers all around the globe will tell him to Bomb Iran, and let the games begin.