Rand Paul Wins!!!

Parker

Well-Known Member
See and that's what makes you an ideologue, just like rand paul. Limited government regulation has a very important place and if you don't recognize that, you haven't learned anything from our country's history. If it weren't for 'regulation' we would still have segregated lunch counters, robber barons and trusts.

So you think having the entire southern coastline, fisheries, ecosystems and all ruined is just an accident or the price of doing business? My point is that I'm willing to pay the price of SOME government regulation and 'nanny state' if it prevents this sort of thing from happening.

What do you think our coastline and national parks would look like if, as you suggest, we let the market punish business for causing environmental disasters rather than having government regulation prevent them from happening in the first place?
What an uninformed person you are. It is BECAUSE of government we had segregation.

The bus companies in Alabama didn't want to segregate they loved the hell out of black peoples money. It was GOVERNMENT that segregated people. Our government created Jim Crow laws.
In 1902 Mobile Light and Railroad refused to enforce the GOVERNMENT segregation laws and allowed blacks on board.
During the late 1800s, private streetcar companies in Augusta, Houston, Jacksonville, Mobile, Montgomery and Memphis were not segregated, but by the early 1900s, they were. Why? City ordinances forced them to segregate black and white passengers.

The idiotic statement of segregated lunch counters is an insult to anyone with any knowledge of economics. How successful or how long do places that discriminate stay open compared to the same business that service everyone?

"The true test of one's commitment to freedom of association doesn't come when he permits people to associate in ways he deems appropriate. It comes when he permits people to voluntarily associate in ways he deems offensive."

Quit violating my freedoms by deciding for me who I can associate with.

ps what kind of person looks to our government to solve moral issues???? Those are the last ones I'd look to. They don't have a very good track record now do they?
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
When it all comes down to it though is the government not made up of its people? I really don't understand.

I mean look at the Az law that so many people on this website are in love with. That is there because so many people are bitching about illegal immigration. You look at the abortion laws, the entity known as the 'government' doesn't care, it is the people that scream about it that make it a issue (for or against), and the people we vote for just mime what it is they think that the people want them to do (to a point, not saying we don't vote in crooks, or that good people turn into crooks).

It is not like once they become a politician, they are removed from the portion of the human race we call Americans and become a borg for the government never to be removed.

It is just we elect people that have no better clue of what they are doing, so they rely on the people that they think know the best to tell them what to do. And generally that is the people with the most money.

The idiotic statement of segregated lunch counters is an insult to anyone with any knowledge of economics. How successful or how long do places that discriminate stay open compared to the same business that service everyone?
Unfortunetly when the white people are the only ones with money, it is a pretty easy economic decision. Today is not the same as when the Jim Crow laws were enacted.

ps what kind of person looks to our government to solve moral issues???? Those are the last ones I'd look to. They don't have a very good track record now do they?
Agreed. But I don't think he said anything about the government dealing with moral issues.
 

UncleBuck

Well-Known Member
You are as nodrama pointed out reiterating the BSNBC soundbyte agenda word for word.
Rand Paul has repetedly said he would have voted for the Civil rights bill. He has never, not one time said he would look to or attempt to overturn the civil rights bill
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VqAAfSfap5w&annotation_id=annotation_29964&feature=iv

To save some time, just listen to the first 58 seconds or so, specifically seconds 53-55 or so.

FAIL (not epic)
 

abe23

Active Member
What an uninformed person you are. It is BECAUSE of government we had segregation.

The bus companies in Alabama didn't want to segregate they loved the hell out of black peoples money. It was GOVERNMENT that segregated people. Our government created Jim Crow laws.
In 1902 Mobile Light and Railroad refused to enforce the GOVERNMENT segregation laws and allowed blacks on board.
During the late 1800s, private streetcar companies in Augusta, Houston, Jacksonville, Mobile, Montgomery and Memphis were not segregated, but by the early 1900s, they were. Why? City ordinances forced them to segregate black and white passengers.

The idiotic statement of segregated lunch counters is an insult to anyone with any knowledge of economics. How successful or how long do places that discriminate stay open compared to the same business that service everyone?

"The true test of one's commitment to freedom of association doesn't come when he permits people to associate in ways he deems appropriate. It comes when he permits people to voluntarily associate in ways he deems offensive."

Quit violating my freedoms by deciding for me who I can associate with.

ps what kind of person looks to our government to solve moral issues???? Those are the last ones I'd look to. They don't have a very good track record now do they?
I'll give you that local governments had a lot to do with institutionalized racism in the south, but it's ridiculous to suggest that private business were somehow coerced into segregating their business because of jim crow laws. There might have been instances, as you mention, of segregation laws getting in the way of people's businesses but the guy who ran the segregated lunch counter wasn't some sort of victim of excessive government regulation...that's just silly. And my point was that it was 'regulation' that ended the practice....not some sort popular boycott.

Also, it wasn't really the crux of my point either. The point was that if you want less 'regulation', the price you pay is polluted coastlines, more industrial accidents and ridiculous financial bubbles that cost people their life savings...

You can decide who you associate with, but if you run a business that's open to the public, you can't decide to treat people differently based on their race...sorry.

And I don't know what you mean by moral issue. Are unsafe workplaces a moral issue? Because I do look to the government to make business enforce safety standards. How about dumping toxic waste into a river?
 

thebuttonpusher

New Member
Of course you would also create a global economic collapse, and reduce the standard of living until a better system was figured out, which could take longer than either of us have left on this planet (if you don't count the time it would take our bodies to decay).
Your premise of total collapse without the fed can't be proven at all, but I can Guarantee that the US Dollar will become worthless due to actions taken by the federal reserve. Its already 96% devalued since 1913, and that can easily be proven. How much longer until it has no value at all?
 

Parker

Well-Known Member
Agreed. But I don't think he said anything about the government dealing with moral issues.
What was the governments reason for the part of the Civil Rights Act that said you cannot refuse service based on color and so on?
 

abe23

Active Member
So you don't like laws that prohibit discrimination because they legislate moral issues...? Is that really what you're saying?
 

Parker

Well-Known Member
So you don't like laws that prohibit discrimination because they legislate moral issues...? Is that really what you're saying?
What was the reason to pass this law? I believe the intent was a moral reason. [well maybe to get the minority vote too, lol]

They cannot legislate morality. I also think it is obvious that the Government cannot be moral. Haven't you learned this from their actions? Individuals can be moral.
 

Patrick Bateman

Active Member
Has it occurred to any of you that less government regulation would allow big business to get bigger, extend their influence and have government officials further in their pockets?
 

thebuttonpusher

New Member
instead of 1 short fat bureaucrat with a clipboard coming aboard your vessel to inspect your equipment, how would you feel if a armed gang of Sierra Club members was put in charge of regulating the oil industry? Would it work?
 

Parker

Well-Known Member
Has it occurred to any of you that less government regulation would allow big business to get bigger, extend their influence and have government officials further in their pockets?
further? lol the politicians are bought and paid for so this will make those same politicians further bought and paid for.

You are misguided to think that businesses getting bigger is bad. The opposite is true until you get into monopolies and then one needs to weigh in on the facts. Because you have a monopoly doesn't always mean they'll squeeze the market and sky rocket prices.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
What was the governments reason for the part of the Civil Rights Act that said you cannot refuse service based on color and so on?
I am guessing it had to do with people bitching about not wanting to have to serve the recently 'freed' black people, and bitched so much and lobbied washington to pass the jim crow laws. Then later when it got repealed it was because a large portion of people where screaming to get the same rights, and you had entire communities suffering because of it, which moved a large portion of the white people at the time that could care less one way or another to agree that they should be changed, and the laws got changed.

At least that is how I am pretty sure it went.

But I am with you, anytime the government gets involved with moral issues it is usually after the horrors took place, and are obvious something needed to be done for a looong time, or they react on stuff that they never should because of how much lobbying and screaming the voters are doing and the politicians are just trying to keep them voting for them so they can keep their job.

The only thing I really said is that restaurants was that economically speaking owners of 'white only' establishments did it most likely for one of two things, they were indeed racist, or the vast majority of their clients were racists or did not want to look like they were not racist. So sadly economically it was their best decision to stay a white establishment, because the black people of the time where dirt poor.

Your premise of total collapse without the fed can't be proven at all, but I can Guarantee that the US Dollar will become worthless due to actions taken by the federal reserve.
The dollar is by far the most important global currency. 85%ish of all foreign transactions involve the us dollar, because it is the only currency that most foreign investors trust when doing multi national deals. Sure they can go to the euro, but that is looking dangerous to keep billions in it, it can go to the yen but they are not the strongest, or the yuan but if they are currency manipulating that is dangerous as an investor. So if you just remove the dollar from that, world business slows as transactions take far longer to complete.

But mostly you look at foreign holding of us currency, the amount of foreign countries that hold a huge portion of us dollars is pretty much all of them. Because they know it is more stable than their dollar. So if the Fed drops out, you yourself understands America is instantly in a depression. All that build up currency is essentially worthless, and when we do into depression, that ends the Americans buying their goods and services, and when you wreck the largest economy by far:View attachment 976693


And you essentially push these countries that depend on us as a huge trading partner for them:View attachment 976690

Which there is not another country out there yet that can just take over our role and purchase all those goods, and that means huge unemployment, which leads to economic meltdowns as people start to default, on and on. And you can trace it back to us destroying the Fed which is not some evil entity, it is just not at the whim of the economically retarded lawyers we vote into office.

I don't for the life of me understand why anyone would want complete control over our money totally in the hands of our government. All the conspiracy theories (that are mistaken) about the Fed creating money is bullshit, because they cannot issue new treasuries or purchase new treasuries, their control over the money supply is only what is out in the system, all the treasury securities they own, where already at one point purchased by a bank with the money they are holding for the depositors.

And when the Fed buys them it is injecting that money back into the system to stimulate the economy and lower interest rates (because of more dolalrs in banks hands they will usually reduce the interest rates on loans, which leads to more investing, which leads to higher GDP). Or they sell them back to the banks to slow the economy (revers, they are pulling out money from the banks which increases the interest rates, and that lowers investment, and that lowers GDP). That is why they are targeting usually 2.5% inflation, because it is a level that has shown to keep the economies wheel greased and unemployment low.

Its already 96% devalued since 1913, and that can easily be proven. How much longer until it has no value at all?
How many Ipods could you purchase back in good ole 1913? Or cars, or tvs, or anything. The value of the dollar is not in the number that is written on it, it is what you can purchase with it. Imagine how much of your yearly pay you would need to spend to buy anything back then, vs today. Goods are better, less expensive (if you understand to base it off a % of how much you earn), and far more available.

So unless we change currency, or decide to give the government full reigns over our money, I would say we have at least a good hundred years or so before America collapses onto itself. Due to its people becoming too stupid and other countries pushing past us in the global scale meaning that we will have to not be top dog and having to learn how to do things better and smarter again. But I am sure somehow we will pull ourselves up and figure out a way to move again. Because we are humans and as a race we are very resilient.

But that is just looking at how stuff is today, not taking into account a world war that leaves us devastated, or some dude riding down on a horse with lion heads and serpent tails to kill us all.

You are misguided to think that businesses getting bigger is bad. The opposite is true until you get into monopolies and then one needs to weigh in on the facts. Because you have a monopoly doesn't always mean they'll squeeze the market and sky rocket prices.
And to pile onto who ever said that, the monopolies usually get to that position because they are able to do their work at such a low cost due to having large efficiencies that they can sell the goods for far less than any other company can. Which means we benefit greatly when this happens because we can buy our stuff at lower prices and now have other areas open to us spending the rest of the money we would have had to pay for the more expensive good.

So that company that would have tried to compete only to fail because they had to sell it at a higher price, can use their resources to open up a different company in a sector that we can benefit (economically speaking) greater from as a society.
 

Patrick Bateman

Active Member
further? lol the politicians are bought and paid for so this will make those same politicians further bought and paid for.

You are misguided to think that businesses getting bigger is bad. The opposite is true until you get into monopolies and then one needs to weigh in on the facts. Because you have a monopoly doesn't always mean they'll squeeze the market and sky rocket prices.
Until we break the cycle

If dollars = speech (according to your supreme court) then how do we widen the gap between business and government?

Big Business' only duty is to their share holders

You are a proponent of a minimally regulated free market while you oppose the elected officials which are, by your own admission, bought and paid for by the very thing you favor

Do you see the problem?
 

undertheice

Well-Known Member
You are a proponent of a minimally regulated free market while you oppose the elected officials which are, by your own admission, bought and paid for by the very thing you favor
Do you see the problem?
the power of business within a free market is based solely on its ability to service the needs of consumers. there is no force, other than the economic force that can be so easily turned against a business that goes against the will of the people. the power of government is based on violence or, at the very least, the threat of violence. it is government that controls the strings of the military and law enforcement, armed beasts ready to do their master's bidding. the more we allow government to interfere in the lives of the people, the more we allow that violence to shape our lives. of course business will attempt to influence government, but a government with limited power is of little use to the avarice that exists within the private sector. the sin does not lie in the control of government by business, business is made up of the people and is just another arm of the citizenry. the sin lies in the peddling of the power entrusted to government by the people to fulfill the personal agendas of those in power or to force the agenda of one group onto another.
 
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