Atheists

[Heisenberg]

But, why does god have to come from, or go to for that matter? No need for gender or appearance, right? For me there is NOW. There is no sequencing necessary. As IT was in the beginning, IT is NOW and ever shall be. Word without end.

I can see where you are coming from, I think. 'Now' is subjective to the point that it is everything, everytime. Something along those lines?

 

[ginjawarrior]

good point and I struggle with this one as well, the only argument I've ever heard on this point is that God has always existed and never "began" to exist. I find this uneasy to digest though.

but you say you were an atheist untill you heard the "nothing can exist" so you added god and yet still in same position but thats enough for you to believe in god?

you sure you were an atheist?

 

[mindphuk]

ok good point, not enough sufficient data. but I still just can't tear away from the fact that everything that begins to exist has a cause, and something can't come from nothing.

I'm not sure anyone believes anything came from nothing. I have heard people talk about the big bang that way but IMO, it was used figuratively. Prior to the 'bang' or the inflationary period that we call the big bang the entire universe was a small dense point and was all energy, no matter existed yet. However, it was still our universe and no one knows how long that singularity existed before it inflated. The universe could be eternal which would eliminate the need for something from nothing or the universe could be the result of something outside of the universe. M-theory proposed that universes are created all of the time when two branes interact. We don't know what was around prior to our universe or if it is possible for anything to be outside of it but the 'something from nothing' idea is a red herring.

 

[tyler.durden]

But, how can you say its a fact? To me it's more courageous to say there is no "because," no answer to "why?" that is presently known. Not in science, not in Religion, and not in any other belief or practice. Some advertising copy writer said it best, I think. Why ask why? It can come from nothing but we can't yet define nothing. And if you are talking about causality in time, then you must know, at least, in quantum math, causality is not at all necessary for existance.


So, you feel a feeling, but you can't feel a fact.

Interesting point you bring up, the question of why. My best friend raised my consciousness about this some years ago, and I've always taught my son to ask how instead of why regarding natural phenomena (how is the sky blue, how does gravity pull things together). It seems that 'why' presupposes a purpose, and 'how' is easily explained by the physical laws...

 

[Doer]

I can see where you are coming from, I think. 'Now' is subjective to the point that it is everything, everytime. Something along those lines?

Yes, Now as the only stillness, from which the memories and regrets, the anticipation and fear fans out in all dimensions and vectors, known and unknown. All entropy moves thru and around Now and all in existence are subject to entropy.

And coming to silent, thoughtless Knowlege of Self, Now allows understanding that Self can stand beyond time and entropy and be un-named, Identity free and still be Self. Thus Eternity, and Forever are two completely different concepts. Eternity is Now, regardless of existence or any other qualifier, ime.

EDIT:

Oh and Z.Strife and I were chatting about the 360 degree view. It really does have to include beyond MEST and existence itself, to be truely 360, right? That's the compass of Now from Self's point of view and is why Self and IT are good buddies, so to speak.

 

[Zaehet Strife]

EDIT:

Oh and Z.Strife and I were chatting about the 360 degree view. It really does have to include beyond MEST and existence itself, to be truely 360, right? That's the compass of Now from Self's point of view and is why Self and IT are good buddies, so to speak.

I think i may be destined to have chameleon vision for the rest of my dreams... practice practice practice.

Though, how i perceive your note on "Time", is that i see it as, from our perspective as humans... the past lives only in memory, the future lives only in imagination... the only real time, is NOW! Is that kinda what you were trying to say, or am i completely wrong?

 

[Doer]

Yes, there is a thread on my view in the Science section. But, I mean it much more absolute than you seem to be allowing. Not just from a human perspective. Actually. The human perspective is everything but Now. The rocks didn't invent time. But, Now is very difficult to experience as it turns out because our chatterbox, internal dialog, nattering is so compelling. So, you can say without any overtone at all, religious, spiritual, practical or otherwise, Now is the only Truth. In the nature of poet, Truth is Beauty, Beauty is Truth. Perception is only Now. If we can perceive Now that extends beyond existence even, without causality, then there IT is.

And if I may, speaking only from experience, there is a lot more Self available than the chatterbox, sitting and enjoying entropy's pleasures will allow. In this perspective the core concept in all religion is absolutely correct, and also sadly twisted by the very chatterbox that maintains these ideas of matter energy time and space. Our meat robot is expert in MEST but somehow inventing Clock Time has put chattermind in charge. The religious analogies abound, so I must not stray to close, we must not un-wittingly intersperse dogma.

And that's my summary of the problem. It's all here. Be here now. Good advice, but how, really to escape Mr. Mind? Practice.

 

[cannabineer]

I agree why couldn't it just happen by chance, but then I think dude are we really that lucky? Do humans really deserve this 1 in a 999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999(it's much bigger number)chance that everything would fall into place so perfectly in the universe to support human life.

I'm late to this party, but if you don't mind my getting all anthropic about it, one thing that we surely know about our universe is that the chance of our existence has collapsed from one in (large number) to unity.
I am fascinated by the idea that nothing exists without cause. I do not believe that, but can't put my finger on why. I'm following my rule of thumb that there may be things beyond our understanding. cn

 

[Doer]

I just want to emphasis the need for utter completeness in this view of Now.

It requires a rather large shift of the definition of "I" and therefore identity itself.
The human body is not I.
The brain is not I.
All identity is not I.
Information about me is not I.
Leaves only the blistering light of Self that's not subject to entropy. Much more like everything than nothing.

 

[cannabineer]

I just want to emphasis the need for utter completeness in this view. It requires a rather large shift of the definition of "I" and therefore identity itself.
The human body is not I.
The brain is not I.
All identity is not I.
Information about me is not I.
Leaves only the blistering light of Self that's not subject to entropy. Much more like everything than nothing.

But what if Self is not a special thing (y'know, soul) but rather a condition of the thinking meat? Perhaps nothing beyond physics and chemistry need be invoked to make a complete person. I worry that seeking the nature of Self is a blind alley strongly suggested by our neurochemical makeup ... but ultimately empty. It's an awesomely self-referent, self-defined problewm ... what if our sense of self blocks us from asking the right questions about self? cn

 

[SirLancelot]

I'm late to this party, but if you don't mind my getting all anthropic about it, one thing that we surely know about our universe is that the chance of our existence has collapsed from one in (large number) to unity.
I am fascinated by the idea that nothing exists without cause. I do not believe that, but can't put my finger on why. I'm following my rule of thumb that there may be things beyond our understanding. cn

I believe I read an article not too long ago about a test done at the HydronCollidor in Europe (however it's spelled) anyways that had two particles collide and the output was something that has never been witnessed before, infact it went against our known laws of physics. Since this one incedent they haven't been able to replicate the results but are still trying some say it may just be faulty machinery either way I agree there is WAY more than we know, we've got a long way to go.

 

[cannabineer]

I believe I read an article not too long ago about a test done at the HydronCollidor in Europe (however it's spelled) anyways that had two particles collide and the output was something that has never been witnessed before, infact it went against our known laws of physics. Since this one incedent they haven't been able to replicate the results but are still trying some say it may just be faulty machinery either way I agree there is WAY more than we know, we've got a long way to go.

If you're referring to the superluminal neutrino result ... yah. I half-remember that one was laid to rest with an equipment issue being at he root of the impossible numbers. cn

 

[Doer]

But what if Self is not a special thing (y'know, soul) but rather a condition of the thinking meat? Perhaps nothing beyond physics and chemistry need be invoked to make a complete person. I worry that seeking the nature of Self is a blind alley strongly suggested by our neurochemical makeup ... but ultimately empty. It's an awesomely self-referent, self-defined problem ... what if our sense of self blocks us from asking the right questions about self? cn

Ultimately correct. We are our own worse and only enemy. I recently proposed a neurochemical answer to the Eternity after death concept. Did you catch that post?

I might also add the reward for the experience of Self in Now unfolds in it's course. It is self evident and self fulfilling. A unique experience. Without the commentary track of chatter that induces sense of duration, after a while, an emerging perspective takes hold. Each little tiny glimpse adds up. So, I would not suggest seeking, rather finding the hidden facet of Self. It turns easily into the actual sense of Self, simply for the broadness of these aspects of Now.

And I'm not seeking any other knowledge but Now. So not talking about life after death. I'm talking about merging deep into the quantum entangled stillness of Now to perceive additional Knowledge of Self. Hard to explain. Real to experience.

If the perception of Self can be larger and awesomely self-referent it's better than not so much, right? And I don't see myself missing any boats of redemption otherwise, do you? We have always somehow perceived there is something more.....Self still Now, I say is worth some exploring. Not the question, the answer.

 

[Zaehet Strife]

So are you trying to say, that becoming aware of Self and Now gives you knowledge about yourself? (ex. who you are, why you think they way you think etc.) Or are you saying that this will give us hidden knowledge about things outside of ourselves? (ex. what happens when you die, is there a god etc.)

If it's the first one, i would have to completely agree.

If it's the second one, i would have to ask myself... how do i know im not making these answers up? Especially when all i have to go on is my emotions and feelings, not evidence or facts.

 

[Doer]

So are you trying to say, that becoming aware of Self and Now gives you knowledge about yourself? (ex. who you are, why you think they way you think etc.) Or are you saying that this will give us hidden knowledge about things outside of ourselves? (ex. what happens when you die, is there a god etc.)

If it's the first one, i would have to completely agree.

If it's the second one, i would have to ask myself... how do i know im not making these answers up? Especially when all i have to go on is my emotions and feelings, not evidence or facts.

I'm offering my experience. I have perhaps managed to get a point where eyes open or closed, still or not I Know there is more to Consciousness of Self than the yack-yack mind will allow. Mr. Mind seem offended that I would want some peace. Ah, so I'm on the right track.

I am not proposing any dogma or explanation beyond that, I can say it seems to me that it is an experience of extra, but not necessarily exterior, perception, and, the experience is completely uncategorized by language. So, to attribute any meaning would be dogma. But, please allow this fine point. It's not information about myself, no psychological "working on myself." It's a self directed shift of my understanding of Identity. Just the experience does the shifting.

Once words are left behind, concepts are meaningless. The Knowledge of Self. What does that even mean? Assigning meaning is my definition of dogma.

Are you familiar with the Plato's Cave conjecture? That's a pretty close analogy. I see it very simply. We can perceive in another "direction" with Minds eye. We can perceive, wordlessly, another part of Self. We have it, we don't use it,. Does that help me? I say it does. How?...that would be dogma. That's it. No fairy tales, no promises. We make of it what we will, or not.

 

[Zaehet Strife]

It just seems to me... that whenever i talk to mystics or fanatics of spirituality, they all come up with the same concept. That we are really some sort of light beings/individual entities of consciousness, and that when we die we continue to exist but just get transferred into another "vehicle" for experience, and which vehicle we are given is dictated by the "good/bad" things that we do.

They claim this as truth, and to me that is the epitome of ego.

It seems to me like they really struggle with the thought of ceasing to exist.

Actually i wrote a paper a year ago for my colledge philosophy class about the alagory of the cave, let me find it, ill post it up, i think its really good.

 

[Zaehet Strife]

The allegory of the cave has intrigued students of plato since it first appeared. Do you think it fairly expresses the way we experience knowledge? for instance, in childhood, everything is black and white, but with experience, we discover rich nuances and hues, as it were. what level are you on? society in general? the world? explain. Do you believe in levels of reality? in enlightenment? why or why not?

I think the way Plato describes the allegory of the cave as being one of the best ways to describe how humans learn to experience things through sense perception. You start out in the cave as a child, knowing nothing but what you can hear, see, smell, taste and touch. You can only see shadows on the wall in front of you, hear the shadows owners seem to speak. I think that is saying that as we are young we tend to see things very simply. We are easily manipulated and very gullible. We see only the shadows of what we think may be the truth, only the glimpses. I think hes trying to tell us that we are who we make ourselves to be, but we our knowledge is limited depending on the experiences life takes us through from the time we are born until the time we die.

Plato describes four different levels of reality. So i would like to describe what each level means to me personally.

D. Those chained to the wall of shadows are imprisoned in the shadowy world of imagination and illusion.

I think this level is describes the most basic human beings in existence. People who have chained themselves to the unmoving walls of what they believe is real without ever asking themselves where the light comes from. They fear change almost as much as they fear the unknown. Not wanting to be free they bind themselves to the safest possible way of life. Is this way of life good or bad? As we all know, what is good and what is bad is based on everyone's own individual perception. In my opinion it is neither a bad, nor good way to live. It is to me, a very sad and lonely way to live.

C. Those loose within the cave occupy the "common sense" world of perception and informed opinion.

This level to me describes human beings that are started to wonder if there is something outside of the cave. They are wondering what is making that light, and where the sounds are coming from. People who have broken the chains of forced knowledge and have started to roam in the cave of illusion. These people are starting to ask themselves why there are here and wondering if there is a way out. Blind, lost and in the dark, confused and disoriented from the echoes of truth and lie they wander aimlessly waiting for a guide or a sign to show them the way out.

B. Those struggling through the passageway to the surface are acquiring knowledge through reason.

Human beings who have seen a gimps of the light and are making their way toward the mouth of the cave. To me these people have pried there eyes open and gritted their teeth as they let the burning sunlight sting their eyes for the first time. Not many make past this point, or even to this point. As the rays hit the open slits of your eyes many cant bear the pain and clamp their eyelids shut. Fear and pain holds them back, but some force their eyes open to the truth. This level to me is the true beginning to self realization. To push further, to accept the pain and fear as they try to escape from the their prison.

A. The rich surface world of warmth and sunlight is the highest level of reality, directly grasped by pure intelligence.

The highest point in life you can get. The completion of self realization. This level describes humans as being "enlightened". People who have chosen truth, logic, reason, knowledge and wisdom. Gaining the ability to think with reason instead of fear, this group of people are in my opinion the elite human beings. Don't get this confused with being "better" than other humans because that is not what i am trying to portray. These are a group of people who have no little or no attachment to the physical world, choosing to fill their lives with improving the self and the mind. As they walk along the land of truth they contemplate, doubt and question everything their senses can touch, and give thanks to everything in existence, be it good or bad.

I think that there are different levels of reality, and that each and everyone of us are on a different one all depending on where our perspectives lie. That we can change levels depending on what situation we are in or what experiences we have been through. I also think that something very drastic has to happen in our lives for us to discard our chains of faith, open our eyes, escape the cave... and accept the truth of absurdity.

 

[Doer]

It just seems to me... that whenever i talk to mystics or fanatics of spirituality, they all come up with the same concept. That we are really some sort of light beings/individual entities of consciousness, and that when we die we continue to exist but just get transferred into another "vehicle" for experience, and which vehicle we are given is dictated by the "good/bad" things that we do.

They claim this as truth, and to me that is the epitome of ego.

It seems to me like they really struggle with the thought of ceasing to exist.

Actually i wrote a paper a year ago for my colledge philosophy class about the alagory of the cave, let me find it, ill post it up, i think its really good.

Oh yes, the push to explain is almost overwhelming. That's why I say religious analogies abound, but let's not go there. You understand I've never proposed this or any dogmatic explanation. Nothing of the past or future, only my experience of Now.

So, perhaps there are even more levels to the Cave analogy but we can't know until we get to the Surface. To me the surface
is the interface where talking internally naturally drifts off, perhaps doesn't stop, but "I" pay no attention. My valuable
coin of attention is elsewhere.

 

[Zaehet Strife]

This i can understand Doer^

 

[ginjawarrior]

This i can understand Doer^

really? i thought he was sounding alot like eye exaggerate there