A US Teenager Who Grew Up In Denver Was Executed WITHOUT TRIAL With a DRONE

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
the other side operates under the law of club, and fang (Jack London fan). yet we have to wear white gloves, and stick our pinkies out, and say "please stop trying to take over the World." fuck that shit. we are inna fight for survival.
Imo the problem lies precisely there.

Terrorists are like real-world Internet trolls. A troll uses the forbidden modes in order to shock his target(s) into a response, preferably one of shocked outrage descending into nastiness. Once the troll has received nastiness for nastiness, he's won, proven that the polite Internet community s just a sham.

The terrorists trolled us good. When they got us to pass the patriot Act, when they induced us to generate and equip a Dept. of Homeland security, they won a big one, bringing us a big step closer to their m.o.

I contend that terrorists deliberately twork to get us to abandon our principles. every time we shift to block them, we are actually shifting to accommodate them. I can see a terrorist lurker looking at Dr. Kynes' posts crying righteous vengeance, and thinking "Good ... good. Let the hate flow through you. Feeeeel it."

Our duties as participants in a society ruled by law is to come up with ways of meeting the deliberately corrosive threat and reality of terror in a manner that is simultaneously

1) effective, and
2) in clear compliance with out national and legal principles.

If we neglect either, the trolls win, and feed, and grow.
I do not have the Answer, which method or protocol will satisfy both conditions. But i do know that Dr. Kynes' way, which cries "fight fire with bigger, badder fire" and hinges on dehumanizing the opponent ("turd" etc.) is not it. cn
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
I lost hope as soon as the government was able to sign that whole preventative indefinite detainment thing into being...it was all over for me...Then that anti-abortion shit that makes it alright to kill women...I checked out...I just want to leave this place...and I think more people should realize they are fighting uselessly...there will be no change...they have written all the laws they need to do whatever they want----if people follow said laws...So complaining is not enough...when the riots that are needed start--I am there...but til then, fuck it for real!
I just don't like when people say, "The government can't do that, it is unconstitutional." Or "they can't do that, it is against the law." Well they just fucking did it! So now what?!
I recommend you write your reps with your concerns. They only respond to the voices that they can hear. cn
 

missnu

Well-Known Member
Being prior military I can't comment without bias, but I did find myself thinking this is one of the better comments in this thread.^^^^^^^
Most people act like they don't care about a war because they have never seen the horror that a war entails...All the wars most people that are alive now have a good recollection of have been fought somewhere else...it has been some other country where people are dying in the streets, or bodies are burning, or bombs are exploding...all the while we walk around complaining about how our AC broke, or McDonalds is out of chicken nuggets...Everyday I am just like WTF? I mean I get it, first world living = First world problems...but we all have the internet...we can see what is going on with other people...
Whole thing makes me just want to hang myself....never ending abyss of horror...
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
Imo the problem lies precisely there.

Terrorists are like real-world Internet trolls. A troll uses the forbidden modes in order to shock his target(s) into a response, preferably one of shocked outrage descending into nastiness. Once the troll has received nastiness for nastiness, he's won, proven that the polite Internet community s just a sham.

The terrorists trolled us good. When they got us to pass the patriot Act, when they induced us to generate and equip a Dept. of Homeland security, they won a big one, bringing us a big step closer to their m.o.

I contend that terrorists deliberately twork to get us to abandon our principles. every time we shift to block them, we are actually shifting to accommodate them. I can see a terrorist lurker looking at Dr. Kynes' posts crying righteous vengeance, and thinking "Good ... good. Let the hate flow through you. Feeeeel it."

Our duties as participants in a society ruled by law is to come up with ways of meeting the deliberately corrosive threat and reality of terror in a manner that is simultaneously

1) effective, and
2) in clear compliance with out national and legal principles.

If we neglect either, the trolls win, and feed, and grow.
I do not have the Answer, which method or protocol will satisfy both conditions. But i do know that Dr. Kynes' way, which cries "fight fire with bigger, badder fire" and hinges on dehumanizing the opponent ("turd" etc.) is not it. cn

I laughed after our president declared war on terror. I still do. Terror is an emotional state, granted a rather profound one but it is still an emotion. Imagine if the president had declared a war on saddness. It is not the government's charge to protect us from emotions yet that is exactly what they proposed to do (all the while stoking what was supposed to be the goal of terrorists, terror).
 

missnu

Well-Known Member
Imo the problem lies precisely there.

Terrorists are like real-world Internet trolls. A troll uses the forbidden modes in order to shock his target(s) into a response, preferably one of shocked outrage descending into nastiness. Once the troll has received nastiness for nastiness, he's won, proven that the polite Internet community s just a sham.

The terrorists trolled us good. When they got us to pass the patriot Act, when they induced us to generate and equip a Dept. of Homeland security, they won a big one, bringing us a big step closer to their m.o.

I contend that terrorists deliberately twork to get us to abandon our principles. every time we shift to block them, we are actually shifting to accommodate them. I can see a terrorist lurker looking at Dr. Kynes' posts crying righteous vengeance, and thinking "Good ... good. Let the hate flow through you. Feeeeel it."

Our duties as participants in a society ruled by law is to come up with ways of meeting the deliberately corrosive threat and reality of terror in a manner that is simultaneously

1) effective, and
2) in clear compliance with out national and legal principles.

If we neglect either, the trolls win, and feed, and grow.
I do not have the Answer, which method or protocol will satisfy both conditions. But i do know that Dr. Kynes' way, which cries "fight fire with bigger, badder fire" and hinges on dehumanizing the opponent ("turd" etc.) is not it. cn

If I haven't told you recently, I really like you.

Then again if I think about it in another way, what have I got to complain about really...? My US issues are so much less than that of good many other nations... What a conundrum...
 

missnu

Well-Known Member
I laughed after our president declared war on terror. I still do. Terror is an emotional state, granted a rather profound one but it is still an emotion. Imagine if the president had declared a war on saddness. It is not the government's charge to protect us from emotions yet that is exactly what they proposed to do (all the while stoking what was supposed to be the goal of terrorists, terror).
The war on Terror, was just a campaign of fear...
The US has kept it's citizens in line with fear for as long as there have been people to keep in line...
Fear has always been the easiest way of controlling a group of people...Don't listen to god you go to hell. Don't listen to the cops you go to jail. Disagree with the US and they lock you up indefinitely...What?!
Fear...
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
I laughed after our president declared war on terror. I still do. Terror is an emotional state, granted a rather profound one but it is still an emotion. Imagine if the president had declared a war on saddness. It is not the government's charge to protect us from emotions yet that is exactly what they proposed to do (all the while stoking what was supposed to be the goal of terrorists, terror).
It's a matched set with our wars on Drugs and on Poverty. cn



(API) A major battle was fought today against Poverty. Elements of the 113rd Infantry and 87th Armor attempted to surround a known enemy camp, but the enemy managed a breakout. Although they were poorly armed and even more poorly trained, the enemy had such numbers that they simply overwhelmed and buried our troops. Air support was "less effective than we'd hoped", a military spokesman informed us. "Nothing but piss-poor targets", Major _____, USAF, said in apparent disgust. A visibly upset Lieutenant General _____ shared with our reporter: "They shouldn't be able to win like this. We have every edge in equipment, organization, discipline, intelligence ... but they have shown an absolute command of logistics."
 

kelly4

Well-Known Member
i trust barack hussein obama and mitt romney to handle the hard choices far more than i would trust you, rob roy, deprave or abandonconflict. fuck i would trust uncle buck to make the call before i turned to you.
Good luck with the rest of your life, trusting politicians is something most people learn to be totally foolish around age 11.
He's not saying that he trusts them.
He's saying that he trusts you less than them.
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
Imo the problem lies precisely there.

Terrorists are like real-world Internet trolls. A troll uses the forbidden modes in order to shock his target(s) into a response, preferably one of shocked outrage descending into nastiness. Once the troll has received nastiness for nastiness, he's won, proven that the polite Internet community s just a sham.

The terrorists trolled us good. When they got us to pass the patriot Act, when they induced us to generate and equip a Dept. of Homeland security, they won a big one, bringing us a big step closer to their m.o.

I contend that terrorists deliberately twork to get us to abandon our principles. every time we shift to block them, we are actually shifting to accommodate them. I can see a terrorist lurker looking at Dr. Kynes' posts crying righteous vengeance, and thinking "Good ... good. Let the hate flow through you. Feeeeel it."

Our duties as participants in a society ruled by law is to come up with ways of meeting the deliberately corrosive threat and reality of terror in a manner that is simultaneously

1) effective, and
2) in clear compliance with out national and legal principles.

If we neglect either, the trolls win, and feed, and grow.
I do not have the Answer, which method or protocol will satisfy both conditions. But i do know that Dr. Kynes' way, which cries "fight fire with bigger, badder fire" and hinges on dehumanizing the opponent ("turd" etc.) is not it. cn
i disagree with your premise.

terrorists are not trolls, they have no intention of claiming a moral victory if we descend to their level. the US descending to their level is the last thing the terrorists want. if we were to descend to their level or adopt their tactics they would lose horribly. the only problem is we would become barely better than themselves. unlike our political "leaders, i have no compunction about naming the enemy for what they are, savages. primitive depraved cowardly savages who prefer to atttack women and children, and if they can do it through their willing dupes so much the better.

if the US were to return savagery for savagery, then not a stone would be left standing in iraq, iran suadi arabia yemen syria libya lebanon afghanistan or pakistan. their fathers would not know where their sons are buried, and the jackals would slake their thirst on the blood of their daughters. ohh no, the savages do not want the US to descend to their level. they like the rules exactly as they are now, every military strike is followed by recrimminations, and scandalized wails of dismay from the pacifists and progressives, and each new attavk from the bastards is met with new useless restrictions by the fools in washington who wish so desperately to appear "progressive" and "post racist" that they search old ladies from sweden qand children from mississipi while syrian "students" stroll past the checkpoint with impunity. ohh no, they dont want us to descend to their level, if we did, we might introduce restrictions on who can or cannot travel in our territory based on religion, just like saudi arabia, or force their women to dress like britney spears, or require them to eat pork or drink beer. nope. they dont want us to go to their level. right now the savages have the advantage, and they mean to keep it. all the hand wringing and whingeing about one dimwitted fool who went to become a martyr and got his wish sooner than he hoped only distracts from the real problems we face with fighting a group of degenerate 10th century idol worshippers who hide behind the skirts of the progressive liberals and their constant outrage at the thought of defending oneself against anyone who comes from the magical orient and it's wonderful culture.

i for one am tired of the proportionality game and the endless recriminations every time somebody makes the hard choices that prevent savages from overrunning our walls. heres the take-away lesson from this little adventure. dont wanna get blown up? dont hang out with al quaeda savages. that seems pretty simple to me.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Dr. Kynes, you and I don't see eye to eye in this matter. I think the terrorists want precisely to goad us into documentably barbarous behavior, so that they can use the machinery of our own media to indict us. It's startlingly effective as guerrilla tactics go. In fact, I read your second paragraph as supporting this premise.

In any case, I reiterate:
unless we come up with and use a way of dealing with the terrorists that is simultaneously effective and in keeping with our formal national principles, we are losing. Fighting fire with fire leads to endless irreconcilable feud. We are called upon to be elegant, in keeping with the conceit that our way is better. time to man up and prove it, and not squabble with them as children would. My opinion.

I am curious: how do you define savage? cn
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
i disagree with your premise.

terrorists are not trolls, they have no intention of claiming a moral victory if we descend to their level. the US descending to their level is the last thing the terrorists want. if we were to descend to their level or adopt their tactics they would lose horribly. the only problem is we would become barely better than themselves. unlike our political "leaders, i have no compunction about naming the enemy for what they are, savages. primitive depraved cowardly savages who prefer to atttack women and children, and if they can do it through their willing dupes so much the better.

if the US were to return savagery for savagery, then not a stone would be left standing in iraq, iran suadi arabia yemen syria libya lebanon afghanistan or pakistan. their fathers would not know where their sons are buried, and the jackals would slake their thirst on the blood of their daughters. ohh no, the savages do not want the US to descend to their level. they like the rules exactly as they are now, every military strike is followed by recrimminations, and scandalized wails of dismay from the pacifists and progressives, and each new attavk from the bastards is met with new useless restrictions by the fools in washington who wish so desperately to appear "progressive" and "post racist" that they search old ladies from sweden qand children from mississipi while syrian "students" stroll past the checkpoint with impunity. ohh no, they dont want us to descend to their level, if we did, we might introduce restrictions on who can or cannot travel in our territory based on religion, just like saudi arabia, or force their women to dress like britney spears, or require them to eat pork or drink beer. nope. they dont want us to go to their level. right now the savages have the advantage, and they mean to keep it. all the hand wringing and whingeing about one dimwitted fool who went to become a martyr and got his wish sooner than he hoped only distracts from the real problems we face with fighting a group of degenerate 10th century idol worshippers who hide behind the skirts of the progressive liberals and their constant outrage at the thought of defending oneself against anyone who comes from the magical orient and it's wonderful culture.

i for one am tired of the proportionality game and the endless recriminations every time somebody makes the hard choices that prevent savages from overrunning our walls. heres the take-away lesson from this little adventure. dont wanna get blown up? dont hang out with al quaeda savages. that seems pretty simple to me.

You miss a point. If they are savages, if they are cavemen and I believe to a great extent they are, then they are not to be feared. They are an annoyance and nothing more and should be ignored. This nation does not fear the inept and that is what most terrorists have shown themselves to be. This country's losses to terrorism directly amounts to our losses in several months of traffic accidents or a year of pool drownings (don't hold me to those numbers). Sure, we could level the cities and incur the wrath of countries that are NOT cave people and are capable of recrimination in one form or another to say nothing of being banished from the civilized global community.

I am certain that were any of the brighter folks on this forum alone given a few million dollars and an honest jihad like anger toward this country, they could bring it to its knees in short order DHS or no DHS, and yet these folks seem incapable of anything but a few crude bombs in underwear or shoes.
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
Dr. Kynes, you and I don't see eye to eye in this matter. I think the terrorists want precisely to goad us into documentably barbarous behavior, so that they can use the machinery of our own media to indict us. It's startlingly effective as guerrilla tactics go. In fact, I read your second paragraph as supporting this premise.

In any case, I reiterate:
unless we come up with and use a way of dealing with the terrorists that is simultaneously effective and in keeping with our formal national principles, we are losing. Fighting fire with fire leads to endless irreconcilable feud. We are called upon to be elegant, in keeping with the conceit that our way is better. time to man up and prove it, and not squabble with them as children would. My opinion.

I am curious: how do you define savage? cn
there is already a time tested and well proven method of dealing with savages. the republican roman way. when they raid one of our villages, or strike at one of our ships at sea, we mobilize our forces, track them down and break them.

case in point: al quaeda in yemen. we know where they are, we go to yemen and invade that shithole. anyone who raises a weapon, he dies. no rules of engagement, no patty cake, no winning hearts and minds, anyone who tries to interfere with the mission dies. the targets are rooted out, and butchered in the streets. if a village hides a cache of weapons or explosives, artillery barrage. a mullah says you cant search his mosque? artillery barrage. somebody sets up an improvised explosive device, destroy the cell network they use to trigger the devices. another device is planted? destroy their power grid. another device, destroy their irrigation system. by the time the locals figure out the new rules they will be more than ready to expel the bastards themselves or rat them out. once the entire country has been pacified, we leave. before we leave we make it clear if we have to come back, their country will cease to exist. to pay for the expense of sorting out their shithole we plunder their dump. the next country will think hard before allowing anybody free reign to establish a base in their land.

each time somebody tries to pull a shenanigan, the country they are hiding in gets the same treatment. one by one, each in turn any country that fails to handle it's own bullshit should receive an abrupt lesson in violence courtesy of the unrestrained power of the us military machine. it's there, we paid for it, we built it, but we dont use it to prevent chicanery shenanigans and assclownery. this should be reversed. in fairly shoirt order the world will rally together and reject the assholes or we will know who our real friends are.

as to definitions, a savage is any retrograde society or religious movement that attempts to impose it's will on other people based on their magic book and the idiotic rambling of a camel raiding pederast. civilized nations and people should not resort to violence unless it is brought to them by savages, but civilization MUST defend itself or we will enter a new dark age of unreason, magical thinking and ignorance. failure to defend civilized society from the ravening hordes of superstitious degenerates ruined many civilizations before, the egyptians, the greeks, the chinese, the celts, the romans the inca, the maya, the aztecs, the cheyenne, and it will ruin ours as well. either we protect our civilization, or we become another footnote in history.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
there is already a time tested and well proven method of dealing with savages. the republican roman way. when they raid one of our villages, or strike at one of our ships at sea, we mobilize our forces, track them down and break them.
We aren't Rome. We no longer live in a world where a superpower can go wherever it damn well pleases. And even if it can, i question that it should.

as to definitions, a savage is any retrograde society or religious movement that attempts to impose it's will on other people based on their magic book and the idiotic rambling of a camel raiding pederast. civilized nations and people should not resort to violence unless it is brought to them by savages, but civilization MUST defend itself or we will enter a new dark age of unreason, magical thinking and ignorance. failure to defend civilized society from the ravening hordes of superstitious degenerates ruined many civilizations before, the egyptians, the greeks, the chinese, the celts, the romans the inca, the maya, the aztecs, the cheyenne, and it will ruin ours as well. either we protect our civilization, or we become another footnote in history.
I think i have found the root of one of our disconnects. You refuse to see a savage as a person. You insist on a dehumanizing use of language. As long as you champion this, then you are condemned to the reduction of this logic to its necessary conclusion: when two contesting societies see the other as less than equally human, there can never be peace. I think you are justified in deeply disliking their social model, but not in declaring it (and them) inferior out of hand. Thus you commit the same moral crime as the terrorists themselves, who of course also see themselves as a purifying, restoring force. cn
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
You miss a point. If they are savages, if they are cavemen and I believe to a great extent they are, then they are not to be feared. They are an annoyance and nothing more and should be ignored. This nation does not fear the inept and that is what most terrorists have shown themselves to be. This country's losses to terrorism directly amounts to our losses in several months of traffic accidents or a year of pool drownings (don't hold me to those numbers). Sure, we could level the cities and incur the wrath of countries that are NOT cave people and are capable of recrimination in one form or another to say nothing of being banished from the civilized global community.

I am certain that were any of the brighter folks on this forum alone given a few million dollars and an honest jihad like anger toward this country, they could bring it to its knees in short order DHS or no DHS, and yet these folks seem incapable of anything but a few crude bombs in underwear or shoes.
this is only because they are hiding. if they feel they can operate with impunity iran or north korea will certainly give the bastards chemical or biological weapons before long. ignoring a street gang only give the gang control of your streets. crushing the bastards with overwhelming unrestrained violence that causes terror in the hearts of any who might contemplate aa similar act in the future is the best solution to dealing with savages. they only understand violence, so we must speak with them in their native tongue. also, fuck DHS, they are incompetent boobs who's only contribution to our security is feeling up 6 year old girls. i doubt a steady program of child molestation will deter anyone who wishes to bomb a plane.
 

billybob420

Well-Known Member
crushing the bastards with overwhelming unrestrained violence that causes terror in the hearts of any who might contemplate aa similar act in the future is the best solution to dealing with savages. they only understand violence, so we must speak with them in their native tongue.
Do you think that's been working?
 

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
We aren't Rome. We no longer live in a world where a superpower can go wherever it damn well pleases. And even if it can, i question that it should.



I think i have found the root of one of our disconnects. You refuse to see a savage as a person. You insist on a dehumanizing use of language. As long as you champion this, then you are condemned to the reduction of this logic ad finem predictam: when two contesting societies see the other as less than equally human, there can never be peace. I think you are justified in deeply disliking their social model, but not in declaring it (and them) inferior out of hand. Thus you commit the same moral crime as the terrorists themselves, who of course also see themselves as a purifying, restoring force. cn
ohh i disagree again. a savage is not a person. a savage rejects that which defines a human being, empathy. very much like rabid animals or sociopaths savages must be battled directly or they will overrun civilization. you cannot defend your house against a bandit with good vibes and happy thoughts. likewise you cannot prevent the savages from overrunning your civilization by hoping they grow out of their violent ways. fire and sword deal with the invaders, not peace signs and pleas for mutual understanding.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Do you think that's been working?
5500 years of Middle eastern history suggest otherwise to me. It's one of the buttresses for my contention that we need to find a "civilized" response - to end the cycle of resentment and vendetta by starving its roots. cn

<edit> and i DON'T mean peace signs and pleas for mutual understanding. Strength is definitely required, but without the vicious cycle of repaying savagery with ... greater savagery.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
ohh i disagree again. a savage is not a person. a savage rejects that which defines a human being, empathy. very much like rabid animals or sociopaths savages must be battled directly or they will overrun civilization. you cannot defend your house against a bandit with good vibes and happy thoughts. likewise you cannot prevent the savages from overrunning your civilization by hoping they grow out of their violent ways. fire and sword deal with the invaders, not peace signs and pleas for mutual understanding.
But with this post you display your complete lack of empathy for those whom you've categorized as savages. Do you see the problem there? cn
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
this is only because they are hiding. if they feel they can operate with impunity iran or north korea will certainly give the bastards chemical or biological weapons before long. ignoring a street gang only give the gang control of your streets. crushing the bastards with overwhelming unrestrained violence that causes terror in the hearts of any who might contemplate aa similar act in the future is the best solution to dealing with savages. they only understand violence, so we must speak with them in their native tongue. also, fuck DHS, they are incompetent boobs who's only contribution to our security is feeling up 6 year old girls. i doubt a steady program of child molestation will deter anyone who wishes to bomb a plane.

And you don't believe that they are now capable of operating with impugnity in some of these places? No, I contend that they are not the threat that they are made out to be and that if their acts are not sensationalized but trivialized they would lose any effective power. OF course I believe that they should be monitored and policed but mobilizing our military in order to effect a response is as has been shown, to be worse than ineffective and disruptive to our way of life. My daughter is being harrassed at an airport because a guy in a sheet bears a grudge?

I imagine rats. I don't like rats, they eat my tomatoes and leave droppings, they could be dangerous but I don't barricade my house, I don't arm the inhabitants of my house with .22 caliber rifles, I don't consider plowing under my entire back yard on the off chance that I might destroy a nest of them. I set out poison, I set traps and I go about my life while barely thinking of them at all. Should I be sitting down to dinner and I hear a trap spring, I excuse myself, dump the trap in the trash, wash my hands and sit back down to dinner. We should do the same as a nation.
 
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