Hey gun nuts, is this your idea of a perfect society?

Dr Kynes

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
fb360 said:
Obviously we are talking about different swords because the one I am speaking of does have plating and does have a self sharpening effect, I'm positive as I've seen videos on it; the exact name of the sword slips my mind. And I've never advocated that a sword I could find would never dull, merely that a well made sword in the case of killing zombies, can go an entire life time without needing to be sharpened. What you're mistaking is that I've said that some materials never dull, they chip or fail before doing so. I presented stress-strain curves which demonstrates that very hard, brittle materials fail without warning, and have no deformation stage. It's basic material science
http://www.ami.ac.uk/courses/topics/0123_mpm/index.html
^^ even includes rockwell hardness for you. Cuz itz basik

Secondly, you don't understand metals or hardness. Did you look up the Rockwell Hardness test yet?

Thirdly I thought you were saying chipping is different than dulling as described in my previous post.

Fourthly, you obviously have never used a saw designed to cut metals. You are wrong again about saws losing teeth, and the fact that you believe that saws don't lose teeth is evidence of the fact that you have zero business in this discussion. Metal saw blades are replaced due to too many teeth being missing, thus resulting in a loss of cutting production. Metal saw blades DO NOT last long enough to be replaced because of any dulling they might obtain in its lifetime

I don't care how many books you read describing how metal works, until you have actually welded, heat treated, tensile tested, etc etc you don't know what you're talking about. It's plain as day as you don't even know how a basic metal saw functions.
Click to expand...
ha ha ha so, a pipefitter's cutoff saw isnt a metal saw? what about a reciprocating steel saw? or a rotary cutter? i used em all.

maybe you could explain why concrete tile and stone saws also dont lose teeth, the wedges on those teeth wear down to bluntness.

i have cut metals with hacksaws (all teeth still present thanks) rotary grinders (losing portions of the disc results in catastrophic failure) reciprocating saws (still got their teeth) band saws (all teeth present an accounted for) and files (teeth still there).

what kind of saws are you talking about that drop teeth like an old hound? where i come from losing teeth means teeth flying through the shop, and we frown on that.
 
fb360

fb360

Active Member
Dr Kynes said:
ha ha ha so, a pipefitter's cutoff saw isnt a metal saw? what about a reciprocating steel saw? or a rotary cutter? i used em all.

maybe you could explain why concrete tile and stone saws also dont lose teeth, the wedges on those teeth wear down to bluntness.

i have cut metals with hacksaws (all teeth still present thanks) rotary grinders (losing portions of the disc results in catastrophic failure) reciprocating saws (still got their teeth) band saws (all teeth present an accounted for) and files (teeth still there).

what kind of saws are you talking about that drop teeth like an old hound? where i come from losing teeth means teeth flying through the shop, and we frown on that.
Click to expand...
You're talking about diamond tipped/plated blades with teeth that are 1inch cutting like marble and granite (VERY HARD MATERIALS), of course that shit is going to dull the metal, they are nearly the same hardness. Those saw blades are case hardened (case hardening is when you leave the inside of the blade at a relatively low hardness to maintain ductility so the blade doesn't fracture upon any sudden impacts, and harden only the very outside "case") so they have the ability to deform and become dull when used repeatedly against another hard material. I was speaking in the realm of a very hard steel blade vs zombies, as this argument has always been about. Also, you missed my last edit, which says:
What you're mistaking is that I've said that some materials never dull, they chip or fail before doing so. I presented stress-strain curves which demonstrates that very hard, brittle materials fail without warning, and have no deformation stage. It's basic material science. I fully comprehend that even the hardest of metals can be cut and dulled by diamond. But you have to understand the whole premise of the entire hardness argument is that much harder materials (56RC tool steel, steel blade) do not dull when used on much softer materials (human flesh and sometimes bone).

I'm talkng about your regular steel bladed bandsaw. Horizontal or vertical, doesn't matter.

Also, wheels/grinders/grinding wheels are not steel saw blades.

edit:
if you want to debate the topic that some materials never dull, just fail in some way, then just google stress-strain curve for 60ishRC. The curve is a linear, steep line that ends abruptly; there is no deformation (dulling). My stance isn't debatable though, as I've already said, it's material science fact. I've also seen it in action during my many tensile tests and hardness tests, so you can't talk me out of it lol

Edit:
Cool, look here, nasa agrees with me. I rest my case doc
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19890068787_1989068787.pdf
 
deprave

deprave

New Member
Dr Kynes said:
what type of blade does not dull?

the silly fetishization of japanese style swords is really getting out of hand.

japanese swords can chip on human bone, they are not magically sharp, and they do get dull.

in defense against your classic brain eating Romero type zombie a mace or iron/bronze bound club or similat fast and BLUNT weapon is your best choice, in conjunction with a shield. the zed cannot bite you if you keep your shield between he and thee.

katanas are and continue to be a duelist's weapon, requiring great skill and finesse to use effectively. performing aido with a shinken is exhausting, doing it with a slavering horde of the walking dead on your trail is ridiculous. plus i doubt they will politely line up to only attack you one at a time and accommodatingly, when slain by your brilliantly executed precise moves, attempt to fall to an off camera location to ensure that principle photography is not hampered by the corpses of the dispatched corpses.

but im certain the final combat will take place on a high bluff overlooking a raging sea, with the salt spray adding a feeling of depth and drama.
the last zombie will naturally fall to a perfectly executed strike, and remain standing for several seconds before splitting in half in a gratuitous spray of blood.
your hair and kimono will still be perfect as you silently walk off into the distance just as the first rays of dawn illuminate your path to your next adventure.

fin.
Click to expand...
who ever said it was a japanese sword
 
N

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
I have a real Katana made about 600 years ago, signed by the swordsmith and everything. Came over from Japan after WW2, was procured from a high ranking Japanese officer whose family had been Shogun at one point. The pommel (Kashira) has the flower petal insignia that signifies the sword was originally either a gift from or specially made for the house of the emperor Seiwa. That's about all I know from the provenance paperwork that was provided and translated. Its a bit odd when compared to a modern manufactured Katana, the Hamon (temper line) is not a perfect wave like on new swords, but much more random and deeper into the blade. Highly polished, but not especially sharp, I think it was mostly used as a dress item and never actually used in combat.It has been refitted with all new Tsuka ( handle) and Menuki (ornaments) and Ito ( Binding) and the originals placed in a box for safe keeping. The amazing thing is how well it fits into the wooden scabbard (Saya). It fits so perfect that the blade has no lateral movement or even a hair of wiggle room. Once you get the blade all the way in, the Habaki (Blade collar) pretty much friction welds itself into the top of the scabbard. To remove the sword you have to give it a quick forceful yank to get the Habaki free, once that is done the sword silently slides right on out with nary a hint of resistance.

It isn't especially valuable as the smith was not some grand master and the owner was not some famous General, maybe $3-$4,000 at the most, but it is cool as hell. I still take it off the wall on display and look at it every now and again.

Amazing what they were doing with metal 600 years ago, Mine isn't laminated like the great master Masamune's Soshu kitae style swords were, the paperwork says it is made of Tamahagane steel, whatever that means. Someone told me that the curve of the sword is not forged that way, but is a natural curve that is induced when the sword is being heat treated and is quenched. Interesting stuff about these swords.
 
Dr Kynes

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
NoDrama said:
I have a real Katana made about 600 years ago, signed by the swordsmith and everything. Came over from Japan after WW2, was procured from a high ranking Japanese officer whose family had been Shogun at one point. The pommel (Kashira) has the flower petal insignia that signifies the sword was originally either a gift from or specially made for the house of the emperor Seiwa. That's about all I know from the provenance paperwork that was provided and translated. Its a bit odd when compared to a modern manufactured Katana, the Hamon (temper line) is not a perfect wave like on new swords, but much more random and deeper into the blade. Highly polished, but not especially sharp, I think it was mostly used as a dress item and never actually used in combat.It has been refitted with all new Tsuka ( handle) and Menuki (ornaments) and Ito ( Binding) and the originals placed in a box for safe keeping. The amazing thing is how well it fits into the wooden scabbard (Saya). It fits so perfect that the blade has no lateral movement or even a hair of wiggle room. Once you get the blade all the way in, the Habaki (Blade collar) pretty much friction welds itself into the top of the scabbard. To remove the sword you have to give it a quick forceful yank to get the Habaki free, once that is done the sword silently slides right on out with nary a hint of resistance.

It isn't especially valuable as the smith was not some grand master and the owner was not some famous General, maybe $3-$4,000 at the most, but it is cool as hell. I still take it off the wall on display and look at it every now and again.

Amazing what they were doing with metal 600 years ago, Mine isn't laminated like the great master Masamune's Soshu kitae style swords were, the paperwork says it is made of Tamahagane steel, whatever that means. Someone told me that the curve of the sword is not forged that way, but is a natural curve that is induced when the sword is being heat treated and is quenched. Interesting stuff about these swords.
Click to expand...
what you got there is a Shinken, a dress sword used in ceremony and for the practice of Iaido. if it is sharpened (which would take a skilled smith mere minutes) it will become a fully operational katana, ready for your battle with the Big Boss or those pesky 7 Ronin depending on where you stand on the Hero/Anti-Hero line

the curve is in fact created by the tempering process, not by any shaping or casting. the nearly finished blade is straight, and a layer of clay is applied to the entire blade, save the edge (where the hamon forms) when the whole thing is heated evenly to the correct color, it is dropped into a long trench filled with a proprietary mix of water and stuff or oil and stuff (varies from smith to smith) and the blade takes it's curve fromm the uneven cooling of the metal through the clay blanket.

i find the most fascinating thing to be the tip, which is actually welded onto the blade from a separate and entirely unrelated piece of hard steel.

european swordmakers also have a few groovy tricks, but their art was slowly overtaken by the development of firearms, rather than made obsolete in a day. theres lots of euopean smith techniques which are nearly forgotten today, but are every bit as unique and clever.

edit: even back then, the elaborate and fancy blades and the "ancestral heilooms" were ceremonial, and for display, not for swinging at the foes. they have much more ordinary swords for that. swords wich DID require frequent sharpening, and often broke in battle, which is why they carried EXTRAS.

the samurai's blades are quite delicate precision instruments, weapons for duelists and officers, not the common rank and file. in the hands of a common hacker they turn from "Art" to "Junk" rapidly.
even the techniques developed for the use of these blades was specialized, for the purpose of avoiding unfortunate breakage, which is why a kendo match doesnt look anything like western swordplay.
 
olylifter420

olylifter420

Well-Known Member
Oh shit, get ready for this.

i want to ban lightning and trees over houses, they almost killed a 14month old baby.

fucking shit, ban em ban em
 
Dr Kynes

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
fb360 said:
You're talking about diamond tipped/plated blades with teeth that are 1inch cutting like marble and granite (VERY HARD MATERIALS), of course that shit is going to dull the metal, they are nearly the same hardness. Those saw blades are case hardened (case hardening is when you leave the inside of the blade at a relatively low hardness to maintain ductility so the blade doesn't fracture upon any sudden impacts, and harden only the very outside "case") so they have the ability to deform and become dull when used repeatedly against another hard material. I was speaking in the realm of a very hard steel blade vs zombies, as this argument has always been about. Also, you missed my last edit, which says:
What you're mistaking is that I've said that some materials never dull, they chip or fail before doing so. I presented stress-strain curves which demonstrates that very hard, brittle materials fail without warning, and have no deformation stage. It's basic material science. I fully comprehend that even the hardest of metals can be cut and dulled by diamond. But you have to understand the whole premise of the entire hardness argument is that much harder materials (56RC tool steel, steel blade) do not dull when used on much softer materials (human flesh and sometimes bone).

I'm talkng about your regular steel bladed bandsaw. Horizontal or vertical, doesn't matter.

Also, wheels/grinders/grinding wheels are not steel saw blades.

edit:
if you want to debate the topic that some materials never dull, just fail in some way, then just google stress-strain curve for 60ishRC. The curve is a linear, steep line that ends abruptly; there is no deformation (dulling). My stance isn't debatable though, as I've already said, it's material science fact. I've also seen it in action during my many tensile tests and hardness tests, so you can't talk me out of it lol

Edit:
Cool, look here, nasa agrees with me. I rest my case doc
http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19890068787_1989068787.pdf
Click to expand...
blah blah blah

unless NASA, JPL and Ames Research come out with a position paper declaring "Katana's never get dull" or "Saws That Throw Loose Teeth Around The Shop Floor Are Good" i dont care what strawmen or absurd stalkinghorses you set up.

claiming to be "an engineeer, so youre always right even when WROOOOOONG" is the classic "appeal to authority" irrelevant images and other shit does not change the facts.

Japanese blades are NOT made by plating, they are WELDED
Japanese swords DO GET DULL
Japanese swords are NOT SELF SHARPENING
Saws that throw teeth around like pointy sharp bullets are NOT FUNCTIONING NORMALLY
ALL blades do in fact get dull
Any chef or cook can tell you, even cutting meat or vegetables, ALL knives require sharpening, even if you dont indulge in hacking through bone
Paper is softer then steel. CUTTING PAPER DULLS YOUR BLADE. A harder material is not needed to dull a blade, work does the job, even if the material you are cutting is considerably softer than your tool. all it takes is time and pressure.


being wrong isnt a bad thing, insisting youre right and dragging up irrelevant bullshit to conceal your ABSOLUTE WRONGNESS is weak ass shit.
 
fb360

fb360

Active Member
Dr Kynes said:
being wrong isnt a bad thing, insisting youre right and dragging up irrelevant bullshit to conceal your ABSOLUTE WRONGNESS is weak ass shit.
Click to expand...
You mean YOUR absolute wrongness.

You won't even put your arrogance and ignorance aside and read the nasa paper backing my entire point. That's weak ass shit.

I'm sure your bullshit, rent-a-engineer knowledge base, trumps NASA's findings though.

edit; yeah, if you read your above quote of mine, and learn to actually read my posts, when I said "other sword", I was implying one that I fabricated. The katana was an example I thought demonstrated the quality of not dulling on zombie flesh.

Lastly: I've done everything I can to support my claim. I've posted real material science stress strain curves, NASA papers, and engineering resource websites, and you deny that any of them hold any value over your layman argument. Pretty comical, but I'm done trying to educate you.
Hysterical that you try pin this on me, when ironically it describes you to the T: being wrong isnt a bad thing, insisting youre right and dragging up irrelevant bullshit to conceal your ABSOLUTE WRONGNESS is weak ass shit.
 
Saltrock

Saltrock

Active Member
Not knowledgeable on blades, but when I use a box cutter on cardboard the blade eventually dulls. Or when I am doing a lot of cloning, the scalpel will be come more dull making more difficult to make a straight cut. So some blades can dull even cutting into organics.

Peace
Salt
 
Dr Kynes

Dr Kynes

Well-Known Member
fb360 said:
You mean YOUR absolute wrongness.

You won't even put your arrogance and ignorance aside and read the nasa paper backing my entire point. That's weak ass shit.

I'm sure your bullshit, rent-a-engineer knowledge base, trumps NASA's findings though.

edit; yeah, if you read your above quote of mine, and learn to actually read my posts, when I said "other sword", I was implying one that I fabricated. The katana was an example I thought demonstrated the quality of not dulling on zombie flesh.

Lastly: I've done everything I can to support my claim. I've posted real material science stress strain curves, NASA papers, and engineering resource websites, and you deny that any of them hold any value over your layman argument. Pretty comical, but I'm done trying to educate you.
Hysterical that you try pin this on me, when ironically it describes you to the T: being wrong isnt a bad thing, insisting youre right and dragging up irrelevant bullshit to conceal your ABSOLUTE WRONGNESS is weak ass shit.
Click to expand...
not a single one of those stress diagrams proves your clkaim that katanas never get dull, nor does any of it prove katanas sharpen themselves, nor does it adress your assumption that dullness requires a harder material than the tool, rather than a harder material being simply the fastest way to dullness. or do you propose to compare the hardness of cloth or paper to the hardness of the shears? even soft shit can dull a hard blade with time, and pressure.

even diamonds wear out.

if youre looking for somebody to hang the banner of arrogance over, check the mirror.
 
Beefbisquit

Beefbisquit

Well-Known Member
olylifter420 said:
Same shit. Obesity KILLS kids every day, so does cancer. The only difference is some get to use the "make a wish foundation" .
Click to expand...
Wow, Oly. Did you turn your brain off more than usual for this post?

Obesity is a choice for most obese people, you don't have to eat until you die. You have zero say in getting gunned down in the street by a madman.
 
squarepush3r

squarepush3r

Well-Known Member
Hey Psychology nuts, is this your idea of a perfect society?

http://www.naturalnews.com/038376_psychiatric_medications_guns_voting.html

(NaturalNews) I know how to stop the next school shooting, save the children and restore some sanity to America. Adam Lanza, the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooter, was on medication, we now know. So were previous shooters like the two students at Columbine High School in the 1999 Colorado shooting. Medication makes some people go crazy with violence.
Click to expand...
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Beefbisquit said:
Wow, Oly. Did you turn your brain off more than usual for this post?

Obesity is a choice for most obese people, you don't have to eat until you die. You have zero say in getting gunned down in the street by a madman.
Click to expand...
Dissenting opinion. Obesity is a choice for very few. Unless you've had your metabolism reset to starvation mode (which causes obesity) and are willing to spend every damned day in a state comparable to acute drug withdrawal, it isn't a choice at all. cn
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top