DaleRoberts
Well-Known Member
Also if they were so worried about drug use and guns...why wouldn't they require a drug test as a condition for the cpl application? Seems easy to me...am I wrong on this?
Any updates on MMJ and Guns
- Thread starter DaleRoberts
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ProdigalSun
Well-Known Member
The App is a 4473 form for the BATFE. The BATFE considers a person a user if they have used within a year. I dont know where the cite is for that claim. A MMJ card holder is not necessarily a user of marijuana. I personally have never lied on a 4473. The proof beyond a reasonable doubt would be that you were using at the time, or within a year of the signature of the 4473, and without hard evidence, such as a drug conviction or tox screen, all they have is their word against yours.
The only time a tox screen is taken is yes, if the person is visibly impaired, or if the person is booked, at which time you would likely be tested as a standard procedure for all inmates. As you know, a tox screen does not equate intoxication or impairment with marijuana. Let the lawyers argue that one. Take the tests, cooperate, and keep your mouth shut.
There has been considerable debate on the gun forums on the subject of alcohol intoxication with legal cites and very convincing arguments for both sides of the fence. As was stated previously, MM intoxication and tox screens don't play well together, so it's up to the courts to decide. To my knowledge, there has been no real case law on the subject in Michigan as of yet with either alcohol or pot, so in a nutshell, it's a crap shoot.
One thing to consider, is jury nullification. A jury could let you walk, knowing that you are guilty by statute, if they felt the statute was wrong. This just happened to a milk farmer last month. It would be very difficult to find a jury that would convict you for defending your home and family after having a few drinks.
Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
The only time a tox screen is taken is yes, if the person is visibly impaired, or if the person is booked, at which time you would likely be tested as a standard procedure for all inmates. As you know, a tox screen does not equate intoxication or impairment with marijuana. Let the lawyers argue that one. Take the tests, cooperate, and keep your mouth shut.
There has been considerable debate on the gun forums on the subject of alcohol intoxication with legal cites and very convincing arguments for both sides of the fence. As was stated previously, MM intoxication and tox screens don't play well together, so it's up to the courts to decide. To my knowledge, there has been no real case law on the subject in Michigan as of yet with either alcohol or pot, so in a nutshell, it's a crap shoot.
One thing to consider, is jury nullification. A jury could let you walk, knowing that you are guilty by statute, if they felt the statute was wrong. This just happened to a milk farmer last month. It would be very difficult to find a jury that would convict you for defending your home and family after having a few drinks.
Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
ProdigalSun
Well-Known Member
Asking permission for a concealed weapons permit does not constitute probable cause for a search, not does it generate enough reasonable suspicion that a crime is afoot.
TheMan13
Well-Known Member
[h=1]United States Federal Sentencing Guidelines[/h]
- Weapons and dangerous instrumentalities (§5K2.6)
If a weapon or dangerous instrumentality was used or possessed in the commission of the offense the court may increase the sentence above the authorized guideline range. The extent of the increase ordinarily should depend on the dangerousness of the weapon, the manner in which it was used, and the extent to which its use endangered others. The discharge of a firearm might warrant a substantial sentence increase.
ProdigalSun
Well-Known Member
^ correct.
Question is, would this hold up in an otherwise legitimate self defense case? You can bet that the lawyers would be arguing legislative intent, which can be a powerful determinate factor in a case.
Question is, would this hold up in an otherwise legitimate self defense case? You can bet that the lawyers would be arguing legislative intent, which can be a powerful determinate factor in a case.
DaleRoberts
Well-Known Member
Hey thanks for the comments by the way I appreciate u takin the time out of your day to respond.
So if you were a mmj patient would you go get your CPL right now? Without any worry of Leo or Feds kicking your door down or Pulling you over?
TheMan13
Well-Known Member
I do not believe you will get your door kicked down for possession of a firearm. Although, if convicted federally of a drug related felony, you will spend a lot more time in the pen for the possession of that firearm. I hope that makes sense 
You must be convicted beyond a reasonable doubt of the initial charges (drug felony) prior to sentencing in which the firearm then comes into play.
You must be convicted beyond a reasonable doubt of the initial charges (drug felony) prior to sentencing in which the firearm then comes into play.
ProdigalSun
Well-Known Member
^ pretty much this.I do not believe you will get your door kicked down for possession of a firearm. Although, if convicted federally of a drug related felony, you will spend a lot more time in the pen for the possession of that firearm. I hope that makes sense
I would not worry about getting a CPL with a MM card, they dont crosscheck yet that I know of. Still, in order to kick in your door, or make an arrest, they need probable cause sufficient to get a warrant. Having 2 licenses is a long way apart from that.
DaleRoberts
Well-Known Member
Feds don't go after small timers like me lol
ProdigalSun
Well-Known Member
I'm not a lawyer. I have a great deal of experience in dealing with law enforcement, and reading law related to gun rights as an open carry activist.
DaleRoberts
Well-Known Member
i just recently bought a new pistol. None of those questions were asked. Only filled out the standard purchase form.
ProdigalSun
Well-Known Member
Me too, no such questions. The new law had eliminated the basic safety questionnaire, and another law was signed this week eliminating purchase permits for all but private sales.
DaleRoberts
Well-Known Member
Now all you have to do is walk in the gun store and buy a handgun like a rifle or shotgun. They give you the registration to drop off to your local police dept. You have 10 days to drop it off. Cpl is not required for this. I think that's why no gun shops have any guns. Its too easy to get them so now they've all been bought up! Good luck finding ammo these days too. They wouldn't sell me any ammo unless I bought a gun..Then they'd only sell me 2 50 round boxes...I was pissed!
ProdigalSun
Well-Known Member
The guns are gone because of the ban scare, and the writing on the wall that says there is likely going to be a ground war here in the US. Drones, buying up a billion and a half rounds of ammo, mostly hollowpoint .40 and 9mm, urban tanks, FEMA camp rumors, the list goes on and on.
At the height of the iraq war, the armed forces were firing 6 million rounds per month, at 1.6 billion rounds, they are preparing for a ground war that could expend ammunition at those levels for 20 years!
One must ask, "what are they doimg with that much ammo, especially hollowpoints which are illegal for governments to use in a war?
At the height of the iraq war, the armed forces were firing 6 million rounds per month, at 1.6 billion rounds, they are preparing for a ground war that could expend ammunition at those levels for 20 years!
One must ask, "what are they doimg with that much ammo, especially hollowpoints which are illegal for governments to use in a war?
DaleRoberts
Well-Known Member
how do you know this to be true? Is there a reputable source or something in print you can point us to? I'd like to read up on this subject a little more...
i spoke with a friend of mine last night who just went in front of the Macomb country gun board. He has both his MMJ card and now has his CPL. He said the question was never asked. I really think people should all get their CPL.
ProdigalSun
Well-Known Member
I think everyone should mail in their CPL in protest, and carry anyhow.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/ralphbenko/2013/03/11/1-6-billion-rounds-of-ammo-for-homeland-security-its-time-for-a-national-conversation/
http://www.wzzm13.com/news/article/248034/2/Battle-Creek-base-to-get-drones?fb_action_ids=456795054390345&fb_action_types=og.recommends&fb_ref=artsharetop&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map={%22456795054390345%22%3A520463711338413}&action_type_map={%22456795054390345%22%3A%22og.recommends%22}&action_ref_map={%22456795054390345%22%3A%22artsharetop%22}
http://www.politico.com/story/2013/03/judiciary-approves-assault-weapons-ban-88866.html?hp=t3_3
http://fox17online.com/2013/03/13/wheres-the-ammo-guns-stores-cant-keep-up-with-demand/#axzz2NViiWtqT
http://money.cnn.com/2013/03/12/news/companies/guns-ammo-shortage/index.html
[url]http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/american-humor-texas-grit/2013/mar/11/americans-forced-quarter-military-drone-mechanics-/#ixzz2NN0DBOxD
[/URL]
http://www.forbes.com/sites/ralphbenko/2013/03/11/1-6-billion-rounds-of-ammo-for-homeland-security-its-time-for-a-national-conversation/
http://www.wzzm13.com/news/article/248034/2/Battle-Creek-base-to-get-drones?fb_action_ids=456795054390345&fb_action_types=og.recommends&fb_ref=artsharetop&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map={%22456795054390345%22%3A520463711338413}&action_type_map={%22456795054390345%22%3A%22og.recommends%22}&action_ref_map={%22456795054390345%22%3A%22artsharetop%22}
http://www.politico.com/story/2013/03/judiciary-approves-assault-weapons-ban-88866.html?hp=t3_3
http://fox17online.com/2013/03/13/wheres-the-ammo-guns-stores-cant-keep-up-with-demand/#axzz2NViiWtqT
http://money.cnn.com/2013/03/12/news/companies/guns-ammo-shortage/index.html
[url]http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/american-humor-texas-grit/2013/mar/11/americans-forced-quarter-military-drone-mechanics-/#ixzz2NN0DBOxD
[/URL]
ProdigalSun
Well-Known Member
There is a lot of available information on the subject.
mushead
Active Member
a state boy just chewed my buddies ass out because he didnt tell him he wasnt carrying, while at work driving a work truck. said you have to tell the cop whether your carrying or not. idk if he was just on a power trip but its the second time ive heard it.
