All Natural Organics. The Dons' Summaries + FAQ Thread. <2017-'18>

[firstnamelast]

Hi FNL

I would slap your friend lol! that's just a couple bacteria species and endo myco fungi, and lots of absorbant basically.
Good news being that OG Biowar can surely be kiboshed in the future then and be less expensive to replace than 170 a kg quite easily, I guess one has to pay for their marketing and packaging more than anything!!

One of our preferred fly frass manufcturers is about 15x cheaper, actually and has all that but myco.. you can buy a pound of that and myco and own both seperate, which I think is better, for just $35.

They had its product tested by a US lab that does microbial analysis and they found colonies of nitrifying bacteria, phosphorus solublizers, pseudomonas, cellulose degraders, chitin utilizers, and heterotrophic bacteria (that's by functional group, not identifying every single species) in various amounts.

Awesome things is one can amass their own bacteria via simply making labs and doing their worm farming, all your fulvic and humic acids will come naturally with that, too, so you wont have to buy those either, ever, if going fresh ..

So in summary, all you really need is a little mineral and meal kit, I can help you find one for under $20 and that will have all the foods needed to do a water only grow (essentialy, minus a bit of malted barley top-feeding, which comes with the kit)..

Meaning you're very close to rocking.. Just need to build some precious castings and that initial base medium..

Maybe I'll try to sell it back to my friend hahaha it was not cheap. I think they send free shit to growers on Instagram to promote their products. I don't need the fly frass and myco you mentioned either? Just a mineral and meal kit and the stuff listed below it? Amazing. Let me know what you find! If you know of any reputable/cheap sources for the materials I'd love to hear em! Thanks again man I'll have to repay you for your help

 

[firstnamelast]

I would use Succanat or equivalent (unbranded) which is an evaporated cane juice with molasses and minerals content inherent... over brown sugar.

If doing molasses, unsulphured black strap is the type to get, although its messy and sticky, hence my preference for a sugar blend which I simply compile myself.

Regarding the milk, raw unpasteurized is best, and can help ensure longevity .. however, any cow milk has lacto producing potential.

The main key is keeping it anaerobic once its done, so storing in the smallest mouth bottle is best..
Gil from Unconventional Farmer says it can last for potentially years if done properly.
Im sure the air lock would help too although I've seen it made with just a simple filter that allows air out.

Otherwise the average life span is about 4 months or so.

Note that just a bit, can make a lot, once diluted to spec. And that you don't need to do the full 50% sugar. Also, you don't need any sugar really, if storing in fridge.. the sugar allows for room temp storage as the bacteria will be more active if warmer.. for each 10* they get twice as busy.

Ok couple more dumb questions and then a basic list of what I need to double check. I'm assuming the LABS can be stored for longer in the fridge? Are lava rocks any good for aeration? Had that written down from somewhere. Now the list:

5 Equal parts of the following:
- Aeration Type 1 (Pumice or Biochar)
- Aeration Type 2 (Organic rice hulls or Buckwheat hulls)
- Fresh worm castings
- Coir & or Peat
- Humus rich component like leaf mould or rotting wood, or fungal compost (In winter find bagged fungal compost or just use more coir/peat until summer)

Mineral and meal kit + malted barley
Rubber bands
Funnel
Pint mason jars
Juice gallon glass jug
5 Gal carboy glass jug
Air lock + stopper
1/2 Gal cows milk
Organic rice
Succanat or unbranded equivalent

Did I leave anything out? Looking for cheap sources online for some of this stuff.

 

[DonTesla]

Ok couple more dumb questions and then a basic list of what I need to double check. I'm assuming the LABS can be stored for longer in the fridge? Are lava rocks any good for aeration? Had that written down from somewhere. Now the list:

5 Equal parts of the following:
- Aeration Type 1 (Pumice or Biochar)
- Aeration Type 2 (Organic rice hulls or Buckwheat hulls)
- Fresh worm castings
- Coir & or Peat
- Humus rich component like leaf mould or rotting wood, or fungal compost (In winter find bagged fungal compost or just use more coir/peat until summer)

Mineral and meal kit + malted barley
Rubber bands
Funnel
Pint mason jars
Juice gallon glass jug
5 Gal carboy glass jug
Air lock + stopper
1/2 Gal cows milk
Organic rice
Succanat or unbranded equivalent

Did I leave anything out? Looking for cheap sources online for some of this stuff.

There are no dumb questions my friend!

Try the company KIS they are in US, and have a mineral kit for $15 usd with all meals minerals as well as barley.
You may find more things there too.

If you have the lava rock I would say you may as well try use it, if you dont, I would say buy pumice or biochar, both are better.

As for labs,
You're right that labs can be stored longer in the fridge plus require less sugar. Small mouth still helps as does HQ milk. Guess you dont need need the carboy glass, or air stop, technically, you can make some in a jar too with filters, that's what I did my first batch. Hy did a pretty pro batch but its not necessary to spend coin on stuff you dont have.. the essentials will do for now.

To be honest, and keep it simple as possible, I didn't even use labs the first year I grew, but it can help with speed, health, pest control, and is a base ingredient in many other ferment recipes, which can be part of high quality craft cannabis regime, so its nice to have on hand, but not needed for month 1, if the shopping is a bit much. If you're all gung-ho, then do it up though!

 

[DonTesla]

Maybe I'll try to sell it back to my friend hahaha it was not cheap. I think they send free shit to growers on Instagram to promote their products. I don't need the fly frass and myco you mentioned either? Just a mineral and meal kit and the stuff listed below it? Amazing. Let me know what you find! If you know of any reputable/cheap sources for the materials I'd love to hear em! Thanks again man I'll have to repay you for your help

You're too kind, FNL! One can always support our seed bank if looking to spread love, we have some real premium cuts / high resin beauties catching some real attention but I'm not promoting, I'm just saying

But yeah, just to reiterate, if you keep your OG Biowar, then you don't need myco or frass, til it runs out... looks to me as that's what that is, an overpriced combo of the two topped up with 70% talc filler absorbant.

IF you DO return it, sell it back etc, then I will show you where to get good myco and frass for cheap. No sweat.

Myco and frass covers a huge range of fungals (as well as chitin) and together, really helps yield, fighting pests, avoiding drought, supporting the P cycle, and so much more..

They are basically the only things needed outside of the base mix and those precious fresh castings full of humics and fulvics and bacteria webs..

If and once you add biochar its permanent, too right, and helps the micro life have permanent living quarters.. so all one has to do to keep up with organics really, if running proper pot sizes, is keep up with worm farming the fresh castings, which is easy, and of course, adding the myco at transplants (apply to roots directly)
Some top dress every 4 weeks, I just add 15% into my mix one time.

Composting (leaves for example) is a really big bonus, and boosts quality, yields further, as all fungal composts can, and simplifies the regime too, as mentioned, to the point where you just aerate the pile and amend it, and everything happens in one place, and all topdressing and base becomes the same things, but thats a big bonus that does take some time to get to.

The frass is just my personal secret weapon, something I've been down with for 4 years now, and its just starting to catch fire in the organic community.. and makes a massive difference .. you can have a plant so dead its not funny, be 100% perky and severely praying, in a couple hours flat, with a single dry application watered in, and on each subsequent watering it will cause the same praying effect, for about 5 waterings, if using good frass, I prefer BSF frass, it really really stimulates the plants immune system much like applying SST's loaded with enzymes and is an easier way to get crazy results, imo.

But I'm always looking for tricks to do water only. I really prefer the end product being as smooth and as surprising as possible.. while being as potent and expansive as possible, oh and colourful with terpy expression..

Hope that helps put things into perspective a bit more!

 

[DonTesla]

Man you are the BEST! Thank you! I forgot he also had me get this sample pack:
https://www.oregonsonly.com/samples/
and this:
https://primordialsolutions.com/product/sea-green-2-oz-bottle/
Maybe I should cancel the order, it hasn't been shipped yet because of the cold

I dont really mess with gimmick type products that are over-marketed and hyped up or any bottled products for that matter.

I would, we go to the source, and get only:

Neem meal
Kelp meal
Biochar
Pumice
Myco
Frass
DE rocks
..things like that. Single products with real, tangible, single ingredients. Takes all the reading, bs and guesswork out .. as well as overcharging.

What's your sugar blend?

It's a proprietary blend not on the market yet so still a tad secret lol but I like raw organic evaporated coconut sugar, Succanat equivalents, mineral rich, along those lines.. you should be able to get something with molasses content inherent at your local health food store. Try find bulk and just spend $5 for now.

 

[firstnamelast]

I dont really mess with gimmick type products that are over-marketed and hyped up or any bottled products for that matter.

I would, we go to the source, and get only:

Neem meal
Kelp meal
Biochar
Pumice
Myco
Frass
DE rocks
..things like that. Single products with real, tangible, single ingredients. Takes all the reading, bs and guesswork out .. as well as overcharging.



It's a proprietary blend not on the market yet so still a tad secret lol but I like raw organic evaporated coconut sugar, Succanat equivalents, mineral rich, along those lines.. you should be able to get something with molasses content inherent at your local health food store. Try find bulk and just spend $5 for now.

What are DE rocks? Super nub here

 

[firstnamelast]

There are no dumb questions my friend!

Try the company KIS they are in US, and have a mineral kit for $15 usd with all meals minerals as well as barley.
You may find more things there too.

If you have the lava rock I would say you may as well try use it, if you dont, I would say buy pumice or biochar, both are better.

As for labs,
You're right that labs can be stored longer in the fridge plus require less sugar. Small mouth still helps as does HQ milk. Guess you dont need need the carboy glass, or air stop, technically, you can make some in a jar too with filters, that's what I did my first batch. Hy did a pretty pro batch but its not necessary to spend coin on stuff you dont have.. the essentials will do for now.

To be honest, and keep it simple as possible, I didn't even use labs the first year I grew, but it can help with speed, health, pest control, and is a base ingredient in many other ferment recipes, which can be part of high quality craft cannabis regime, so its nice to have on hand, but not needed for month 1, if the shopping is a bit much. If you're all gung-ho, then do it up though!

Gotcha I see what you mean now it has a bunch of stuff in it:

For Blending and Topdressing:
Malted Barley

For Mixing in Soil:
Crustacean Meal
Kelp Meal
Neem Cake
Karanja Cake
Basalt
Gypsum
Oyster Shell Flour

This one right?
https://www.kisorganics.com/collections/soil-amendments/products/clackamas-coot-nutrient-kit
I am totally gung ho I am doing the LABS no doubt about it haha

 

[firstnamelast]

You're too kind, FNL! One can always support our seed bank if looking to spread love, we have some real premium cuts / high resin beauties catching some real attention but I'm not promoting, I'm just saying

But yeah, just to reiterate, if you keep your OG Biowar, then you don't need myco or frass, til it runs out... looks to me as that's what that is, an overpriced combo of the two topped up with 70% talc filler absorbant.

IF you DO return it, sell it back etc, then I will show you where to get good myco and frass for cheap. No sweat.

Myco and frass covers a huge range of fungals (as well as chitin) and together, really helps yield, fighting pests, avoiding drought, supporting the P cycle, and so much more..

They are basically the only things needed outside of the base mix and those precious fresh castings full of humics and fulvics and bacteria webs..

If and once you add biochar its permanent, too right, and helps the micro life have permanent living quarters.. so all one has to do to keep up with organics really, if running proper pot sizes, is keep up with worm farming the fresh castings, which is easy, and of course, adding the myco at transplants (apply to roots directly)
Some top dress every 4 weeks, I just add 15% into my mix one time.

Composting (leaves for example) is a really big bonus, and boosts quality, yields further, as all fungal composts can, and simplifies the regime too, as mentioned, to the point where you just aerate the pile and amend it, and everything happens in one place, and all topdressing and base becomes the same things, but thats a big bonus that does take some time to get to.

The frass is just my personal secret weapon, something I've been down with for 4 years now, and its just starting to catch fire in the organic community.. and makes a massive difference .. you can have a plant so dead its not funny, be 100% perky and severely praying, in a couple hours flat, with a single dry application watered in, and on each subsequent watering it will cause the same praying effect, for about 5 waterings, if using good frass, I prefer BSF frass, it really really stimulates the plants immune system much like applying SST's loaded with enzymes and is an easier way to get crazy results, imo.

But I'm always looking for tricks to do water only. I really prefer the end product being as smooth and as surprising as possible.. while being as potent and expansive as possible, oh and colourful with terpy expression..

Hope that helps put things into perspective a bit more!

Link me to your seed bank I will definitely support you. Is there shipping from within the US?

 

[DonTesla]

What are DE rocks? Super nub here

Naturals algae called diatoms in compressed rock form, known as diatomaceous earth or diatomite, its one of my fav top dresses and its also a superior aeration. Another bonus for those who like clean looks, and multi purpose top dresses... this stuff kills pests, interrupts pupae cycles, and lends cooling Si effects each time you water too. Very awesome stuff imo, but not NEEDED per se.

 

[DonTesla]

Gotcha I see what you mean now it has a bunch of stuff in it:

For Blending and Topdressing:
Malted Barley

For Mixing in Soil:
Crustacean Meal
Kelp Meal
Neem Cake
Karanja Cake
Basalt
Gypsum
Oyster Shell Flour

This one right?
https://www.kisorganics.com/collections/soil-amendments/products/clackamas-coot-nutrient-kit
I am totally gung ho I am doing the LABS no doubt about it haha

Haha you're awesome..
I was gung ho too, the shopping didnt phase me, was too excited to have that premium organic cannabis on the way

But yep, you found it.. that will do 3.5 cf at 2 cups per cf.. I mix a bit stronger but that will get you rolling nicely!

 

[firstnamelast]

Haha you're awesome..
I was gung ho too, the shopping didnt phase me, was too excited to have that premium organic cannabis on the way

But yep, you found it.. that will do 3.5 cf at 2 cups per cf.. I mix a bit stronger but that will get you rolling nicely!

I am ecstatic haha been waiting YEARS for this. I'm buying everything I can ASAP because it's just gonna pay itself off in a short amount of time. It's so much cheaper to grow vs buy, it's a no brainer. How much of this mineral kit should I grab? And should I get anything else from KIS you think? Gonna buy that sucker right frickin now lol

 

[DonTesla]

Congrats

If you can determine your size constraints to determine your biggest possible pot sizes.

Then you will know if you are doing 3 x 15 gal pots or 3 x 25 gal pots. Plus a bit to veg.
Each kit will do 26 gal or 100 litre so 2 or 3 is fine to start

 

[firstnamelast]

If you say at least 15 gal pots then I'll probly try that first. Thanks again

 

[firstnamelast]

Haha you're awesome..
I was gung ho too, the shopping didnt phase me, was too excited to have that premium organic cannabis on the way

But yep, you found it.. that will do 3.5 cf at 2 cups per cf.. I mix a bit stronger but that will get you rolling nicely!

You think this stuff lasts a while or will it go bad rather quickly? I'm considering buying the big ass bag if I'm always gonna need it

 

[DonTesla]

All mixed together it can start to interact with each other is all

.. I like to buy in bulk separately even though the end goal is
a well-amended, fermented mellowed compost aerated and balanced with fungals and bacterials as well as microbes & a full spectrum of nutrients..

Having said that, keeping stuff separate does allow for crop reading fine adjustments and different recipe tweaks too.

When I mix up a kit for a friend or whoever I do so right before sending it out. These days anyway.
Come spring once warm space is avail may pre mix meals & minerals once a month or so in semi sizeable batches or something

Then just keep the

• meal & mineral blends separate
• fungals & bacterials separate.
• Ferments & natural IPM/sprays separate

So yeah what I would do if going for more than the "1 cycle intro pack" slash "spend less than a $100 & start growing organic" easy route.. is actually get semi-bulk:

MEALS

• 10kg neem meal
• 10 kg kelp meal

• 1.5 kg Alfafa meal......Adds leafage but more bud too (source?)

Theoretical Ideal (?): alfafa seed tea at flip but 1/4 cup per cf meal or even half that can do wonders if castings

MINERALS

• gypsum.... for slow release S, flavour, smell, pungency, more
• basalt........ for density pungency paramagnetics health brix

OPTIONAL (?)

Or shall I say, What I'm moving towards cutting out right now, anyway, is the less soluble Ca forms / carbonates & factory farming / animal products / things the mrs or I may think are grosser / smellier to work with / harder to find, so namely for us, that's :

• crustacean meal or crab shell meal (phasing out)
• fish bone meal (still using 1-2 tbsp per cf, phasing out if next round goes well)

But what I do like, and even consider vegetarian lol and near musts in my garden, since SST's are a PITA to me:

• soft rock phosphate (back on this, for soluble Ca, note that rock phosphate (NON soft) has needless heavy metals)
• glacial rock dust for more potency, more minerals etc
• Black soldier frass for easy fungal boost / huge chitin responses, etc
• Coconut water, live enzymes, cal mag, and so much more
• Aloe flakes or water, b vitamins & again, so much more

Maybe even

• greensand for long term beds, all its traces, etc
• Langbeinite (for its K & Sulphur / Mag)

Stored separately, this dry stuff lasts forever basically.

Then for those going for that next level all star organics things to

COLLECT COME SUMMER (to make thee ultimate aeration / mucho killer performing blend)

• Leaf mould, fungal, aerating, water retaining etc
• rotting wood chunks, highly fungal, retaining etc
• BIM or Beneficial Indigenous Microorganisms from different forests / regions

Hope this helps to see the levels / stages to the substitution game a bit!!

 

[firstnamelast]

All mixed together it can start to interact with each other is all

.. I like to buy in bulk separately even though the end goal is
a well-amended, fermented mellowed compost aerated and balanced with fungals and bacterials as well as microbes & a full spectrum of nutrients..

Having said that, keeping stuff separate does allow for crop reading fine adjustments and different recipe tweaks too.

When I mix up a kit for a friend or whoever I do so right before sending it out. These days anyway.
Come spring once warm space is avail may pre mix meals & minerals once a month or so in semi sizeable batches or something

Then just keep the

• meal & mineral blends separate
• fungals & bacterials separate.
• Ferments & natural IPM/sprays separate

So yeah what I would do if going for more than the "1 cycle intro pack" slash "spend less than a $100 & start growing organic" easy route.. is actually get semi-bulk:

MEALS

• 10kg neem meal
• 10 kg kelp meal

• 1.5 kg Alfafa meal......Adds leafage but more bud too (source?)

Theoretical Ideal (?): alfafa seed tea at flip but 1/4 cup per cf meal or even half that can do wonders if castings

MINERALS

• gypsum.... for slow release S, flavour, smell, pungency, more
• basalt........ for density pungency paramagnetics health brix

OPTIONAL (?)

Or shall I say, What I'm moving towards cutting out right now, anyway, is the less soluble Ca forms / carbonates & factory farming / animal products / things the mrs or I may think are grosser / smellier to work with / harder to find, so namely for us, that's :

• crustacean meal or crab shell meal (phasing out)
• fish bone meal (still using 1-2 tbsp per cf, phasing out if next round goes well)

But what I do like, and even consider vegetarian lol and near musts in my garden, since SST's are a PITA to me:

• soft rock phosphate (back on this, for soluble Ca, note that rock phosphate (NON soft) has needless heavy metals)
• glacial rock dust for more potency, more minerals etc
• Black soldier frass for easy fungal boost / huge chitin responses, etc
• Coconut water, live enzymes, cal mag, and so much more
• Aloe flakes or water, b vitamins & again, so much more

Maybe even

• greensand for long term beds, all its traces, etc
• Langbeinite (for its K & Sulphur / Mag)

Stored separately, this dry stuff lasts forever basically.

Then for those going for that next level all star organics things to

COLLECT COME SUMMER (to make thee ultimate aeration / mucho killer performing blend)

• Leaf mould, fungal, aerating, water retaining etc
• rotting wood chunks, highly fungal, retaining etc
• BIM or Beneficial Indigenous Microorganisms from different forests / regions

Hope this helps to see the levels / stages to the substitution game a bit!!

That makes sense I didn't think about it that way. What's SST stand for? Lol any reputable sources online you'd recommend for the materials? Probably gotta go through a bunch of different sources. I'm still gonna get a small pack of the easy mix to get myself rolling real quick it was a great idea, thanks again. Tons of good info in here

 

[firstnamelast]

Dang they want $20 in shipping that just pretty much doubled the cost of this mix. What the heck

 

[SSGrower]

Hey Don, hope all is well. Fought up on last few pages, a few additions, comments.

T5 bulbs - agromax 10K finisher very similar to actinc white for a lower cost, though I've never tried the actincs.

Recent additions to the amendment regimen - insect frass and aged bison (buffalo) manure compost. For insect frass, the local pet food store grows their own bugs for reptile feeding, would this be a good source? What would throw up red flag saying it's ok for my frog but I don't want to use it as an amendment?

 

[DonTesla]

Oh and don't forget to activate some fungals while your meals and minerals are mellowing / fermenting into the mix!

This was just done with a sifted flour of organic oats, my cheapest, laziest way. No frass, no grokashi, no malted barley, no red wheat bran.. so it can be done.. sifting it fine is the key to avoid GREEN Mold / trichoderma.




This mix is ready for water only action.. and can yield immaculate herb such as this:

 

[DonTesla]

That makes sense I didn't think about it that way. What's SST stand for? Lol any reputable sources online you'd recommend for the materials? Probably gotta go through a bunch of different sources. I'm still gonna get a small pack of the easy mix to get myself rolling real quick it was a great idea, thanks again. Tons of good info in here

SST = Seed Sprout Teas, which are full of basically loaded with living bene's / enzymes and can cause immune responses that trigger the 'praying' we like to see

Myself, I'm lazy so I use vegetarian fed black solider fly frass and coconut plasma as a simple cheat cheat to this.. also cause I dislike brewing indoors and messes.

For American sources..
You can check out Build a Soil next.
They should have everything you need. If not let me know!