All Natural Organics. The Dons' Summaries + FAQ Thread. <2017-'18>

[DonTesla]

Hey Don, hope all is well. Fought up on last few pages, a few additions, comments.

T5 bulbs - agromax 10K finisher very similar to actinc white for a lower cost, though I've never tried the actincs.

Recent additions to the amendment regimen - insect frass and aged bison (buffalo) manure compost. For insect frass, the local pet food store grows their own bugs for reptile feeding, would this be a good source? What would throw up red flag saying it's ok for my frog but I don't want to use it as an amendment?

All is well for sure...Thanks SSG, and yeah good point on price, thats right.

whats the UV like in the agromax 10k finisher though, if you can find out?

Glad to see you're on the frass alas though, lol!!

Meal worm is the inferior type, in my experience
Cricket frass.. the next step up, still disappointed me
but by far the best .. black soldier fly frass.. amazing results..so depends what they use!

I only recommend / buy / sell the BSF type, myself!!

How's your bison compost for density, is it fluffier than cow manure?

 

[DonTesla]

Dang they want $20 in shipping that just pretty much doubled the cost of this mix. What the heck

I just paid $20 for shipping an envelope that was a bit too fat to squeeze through the skinny slot.
I feel your pain!

The good news is that I have never had a store not listen to me when I asked them to carry this meal, that meal.. maybe you can get your local store owners to do the same.

But honestly, each ounce of organic is worth like. $300 to me. So you're gonna be up over $3-5k in premium terpy organic (did I mention super smooth and clean?) herb soon too.. yummmmm / priceless..

 

[SSGrower]

All is well for sure...Thanks SSG, and yeah good point on price, thats right.

whats the UV like in the agromax 10k finisher though, if you can find out?

Glad to see you're on the frass alas though, lol!!

Meal worm is the inferior type, in my experience
Cricket frass.. the next step up, still disappointed me
but by far the best .. black soldier fly frass.. amazing results..so depends what they use!

I only recommend / buy / sell the BSF type, myself!!

How's your bison compost for density, is it fluffier than cow manure?

Ill check up on the uv but Ive discountinued the use of my pure uv 75/25 uva/b freeing it up for a fr

So, many a time I have thought to hop the fence of the buffalo enclosure near my house and gather a few pies but that ends badly, the brand is buffaloam, aged 2 year from ranch in north central co. Its really dry and fluffy.

 

[firstnamelast]

I just paid $20 for shipping an envelope that was a bit too fat to squeeze through the skinny slot.
I feel your pain!

The good news is that I have never had a store not listen to me when I asked them to carry this meal, that meal.. maybe you can get your local store owners to do the same.

But honestly, each ounce of organic is worth like. $300 to me. So you're gonna be up over $3-5k in premium terpy organic (did I mention super smooth and clean?) herb soon too.. yummmmm / priceless..

I know what you mean. I was expecting something reasonable. A lot of the other stuff at KIS has free shipping just not on their larger (50 lb+) items. I didn't think this was going to be that heavy for a small kit. If I wanted to buy all my stuff online (not sure where to start locally) would you say either of these sources has reasonable prices for bulk?

https://www.kisorganics.com/collections/all
https://buildasoil.com/collections/all

I'm thinking about buying the biggest bags I can to save some money in the long run. Also, are fabric pots a necessity when doing your method? Just curious. In other news I have a bunch of extra LED boards that I'm going to use in another room to try and grow some heirloom vegetables indoors lol wish my luck! If you know where to get some good vegetable and fruit tree seeds for cheap let me know! Thanks!

 

[firstnamelast]

SST = Seed Sprout Teas, which are full of basically loaded with living bene's / enzymes and can cause immune responses that trigger the 'praying' we like to see

Myself, I'm lazy so I use vegetarian fed black solider fly frass and coconut plasma as a simple cheat cheat to this.. also cause I dislike brewing indoors and messes.

For American sources..
You can check out Build a Soil next.
They should have everything you need. If not let me know!

Lol I just noticed you already recommended Build a Soil. I've been checking them out ever since I've been looking for soil but I wasn't sure if their prices were right. Funds aren't tight but I'd like to get the best bang for my buck and find a good sources for the future. Plus still gotta order some seeds!

 

[firstnamelast]

Oh and don't forget to activate some fungals while your meals and minerals are mellowing / fermenting into the mix!

This was just done with a sifted flour of organic oats, my cheapest, laziest way. No frass, no grokashi, no malted barley, no red wheat bran.. so it can be done.. sifting it fine is the key to avoid GREEN Mold / trichoderma.


View attachment 4069064

This mix is ready for water only action.. and can yield immaculate herb such as this:

View attachment 4069076

View attachment 4069084

Is malted barley a substitute for this method? And do you make any teas?? I was wondering if I should or not

 

[firstnamelast]

Ok last question, trying to make the complete shopping list. I know I probably have a few doubles and optional items stacked up unnecessarily here. Trying to summarize everything but I still have no idea yet lol but here goes:

Bagged fungal compost
Coir or peat?
Black soldier fly frass
Myco
Malted barley
Neem meal
Kelp meal
Alfalfa meal
Pumice or biochar?
Organic rice hulls or buckwheat hulls?
Gypsum
Basalt
Soft rock phosphate
Glacial rock dust
Coconut water, cal mag, or live enzymes?
Langbeinite
Diatomaceous earth or diatomite?
Aloe vera plant
Coconut plasma
Organic rice
Succanat or unbranded equivalent, raw organic evaporated coconut sugar, or mineral rich?
1/2 Gal cows milk

I don't want to double up on anything if I don't need to right now. I'd like to keep it as simple as possible, with the best ingredients possible, and as little ingredients as possible to start with lol so I can grasp the whole process a little quicker. And then add in other stuff later when I know what I'm doing.

Whatever you recommend as the absolute best option I'll go with! I feel like I won't understand any of this until I get my hands dirty hah so sorry for so many dang questions! The knowledge is much appreciated, you seem to be a bit further ahead in the area than most from what I've seen. So keep the up good work my friend! I am impressed

 

[Dear ol" Thankful Grower!]

Ok, been a long time and long ways since the old Vamp blend was used our first year,
nevermind the Rasta blend, and Ocean Farmah blend, and now that we be working on the all new Rocky Mountain Blend, its time to officially release the recipe from 2016

The Dons' 5-way Living-blend;

1. 1 part HQ Coir and or Peat (ie. high quality- no compressed bricks, inspected for bad bugs, & very well rinsed)
2. 1 part 'fresh veggie fed' worm castings (gluten, cardboard, paper, meat & dairy free, low fruit) optional for non vegetarian recipes: feed 25% (of volume) vegan-rabbit manure or other premium manure to worms
3. 1 part humus / aged compost (in the past when in a rush we just used screened Vigoro if far from forest / rotted wood but now I would try avoid it, at least screen for any chunks, they're getting lazier I think)
4. 1 part aeration 1 (we like pumice best)
5. 1 part 2nd aeration (such as an N charged mix of bio char / organic buckwheat/rice hulls, if no leaf mould etc is avail)

Mineral Mix:
add 4 cups per Cu Ft, minimum

Example blend, equal parts

• Glacial Rock Dusts (we have / are currently testing 3 main kinds / colours, may be very useful depending on strain & application, ex: whether trying to grow for high CBD or THC or nutrients)
• Basalt
• Gypsum

Meal Mix:
add 1 to 2 cups per cu ft, min,

• 1/2 cup Kelp Meal (Minumum, & up to 1 to 2% kelp meal of total volume so 2 cups plus, with great effects on potency and speed, example pics to follow)
• 1/2 cup Neem Meal (Ahimsa Organic from India, I've tried more as well but this is safe start)
• 1/4 cup Crab Shell Meal (Finer the better, in terms of chunk size)

Pre-use Topdress:
with fungal food mix and grow some mycelium beforehand, such as organic oats, ground into flour strained through a sifter, finer the powder the better. Or another option is grokashi etc.

Notes continued:

• Use what you have to start, and start now, can apply more later on the go, scratch into surface etc, I would use whats available, add the others after, just stay above 4 cups and 1 cup though for minerals and meals though, respectively
• If you don't add gypsum be sure to gently foliar epsom on twice in early flower, 1/8 tsp per gallon does more than you think, both for terps, as well as vitamin production and mineral absorption, and wont cause burn
• Testing some recipes much higher than this 4 cups per cf for minerals but this is the generally accepted standard at the moment
• There are some other good / paramagnetic minerals, like granite and moonstone, and many more but these are the basics and very useful for basic expression, brix, density, as well as minerals, & therefore potency
• We also like greensand and its profile but we like to use our soil for years, note its not available for 2 years or so but is there after, we don't see anything wrong with using it & thinking long term/ shooting for 25+ cycles of use or more
• For alfafa, I now omit it, but wouldn't be opposed to using alfalfa seed teas in the first two wks of fruit setting if stretching is an issue.
• I also like fresh young coconut water, and real aloe, but good brands with one ingredient are also good, just go easy, less is more, and is repeatable, a burn isn't the most reversible.

Subbed

 

[DonTesla]

I know what you mean. I was expecting something reasonable. A lot of the other stuff at KIS has free shipping just not on their larger (50 lb+) items. I didn't think this was going to be that heavy for a small kit. If I wanted to buy all my stuff online (not sure where to start locally) would you say either of these sources has reasonable prices for bulk?

https://www.kisorganics.com/collections/all
https://buildasoil.com/collections/all

I'm thinking about buying the biggest bags I can to save some money in the long run. Also, are fabric pots a necessity when doing your method? Just curious. In other news I have a bunch of extra LED boards that I'm going to use in another room to try and grow some heirloom vegetables indoors lol wish my luck! If you know where to get some good vegetable and fruit tree seeds for cheap let me know! Thanks!

Those are two of the better places in the states I would say.
You can spend $30 per kg or 2 per item in most stores here.. so a good $300 minimum not including base lights pots & seeds.
Factor in free shipping and its 85 for about 15 kg .. thats like 5 to 6 a kilo

Re the heirlooms.. Your boy Ja can toss in some for free he only messes with heirlooms and tasty / exotic ones at that.. he normally sell all the personal top 30+ favs for 99 bones in a nice fat package. Easy!!

Also..If you have a head shop or hydro shop near by, give me their name and or number, I can get them to carry anyone's product really.. my girl is always telling me I should be paid for everything I do, lol, but I do enjoy getting stores to change their ways and open their eyes to growing the way it should be..I know one day a bunch of stores will be buying off us anyway.

Is malted barley a substitute for this method? And do you make any teas?? I was wondering if I should or not

Yes it is a sub.. I don't use malted barley but there are many ways to start a fungus party!

EDIT
For me, if doing big pot sizes I do no teas.. if doing small pot sizes, I tea em up with just plain bacterial or fungal teas, depending where they are on their lifespan... more bacterial in the beginning, more fungal towards the end..

Lol I just noticed you already recommended Build a Soil. I've been checking them out ever since I've been looking for soil but I wasn't sure if their prices were right. Funds aren't tight but I'd like to get the best bang for my buck and find a good sources for the future. Plus still gotta order some seeds!

No worries, it takes some repetition for all this to sink in the first time around.. lol don't feel bad, there are people learning from this as we speak.. their prices are good though I would say. If readers here know of a better place they will mention it too. I hear you though!!

Ill check up on the uv

You're awesome!

 

[SSGrower]

So apparenty now there is a 10k + uva and a 10k finisher, when I got my 2ft bulbs the 10k finisher was sold more like the 10k + uva so who really knows?

 

[DonTesla]

Ok last question, trying to make the complete shopping list. ... Trying to summarize everything but I still have no idea yet lol but here goes:

I will try simplify / re break it down like this for you (and future folks) ok mate, check this out, here's all one really needs to grow the terpy, organic killer:

Base

• 40 % best aeration you can get (suggest pumice and or biochar to start, perlite as a very last resort, can always develop this further once started, don't worry about DE unless using it for a clean top dress with cooling & pest benefits)
• 20 % fresh castings or diy vermicompost (bagged + humics being a very last resort)
• Remaining is your coir or peat or fungal compost / manure blend (to start, later to be replaced by diy compost, leaf mould or rotting wood etc)

Key "foods" to mellow in / "ferment/cook" in to the base:

Meals

• Kelp & Neem (can skip alfalfa for now, fish bone meal, & oyster/crab/crustacean meal, too if using frass)

Minerals

• Basalt & Gypsum (can get Soft Rock Phosphate & GRD as you go, scrape into topsoil anytime)

Key ingredients to get in time for first transplants:

• BSFly Frass & Endo Myco Fungi (glomus types etc which infect roots inside the cell, very beneficial)

Useful ingredients to get time for the FLIP:

• Aloe vera plant or flakes or juice
• Coconut (Young Thai, or canned, one ingredient)
• epsom salt (Mg S4 i.e. Vitamin & Mineral Enhancing foliar)

Then some steps to take once everything is started:

• Start diy "labs" (milk, rice, glass)
• Start Citrus Ferment (develop natural organic pest spray regime)
• Fungal inoculation for flowering such as Grokashi (can sub with frass, malted barley, red wheat bran, sifted oat flour, etc)

The things one can do in spring / summer / fall to make 2019 & subsequent years better / easier:

• Collect leaves for pure leaf compost (shred to speed up)
• Start outdoor compost (see @greasemonkeymann for ideas)
• Collect leaf mould & or rotting wood from forest areas

One can just worry about the black font to start, then graduate your way through the grey areas. Hope this helps! One love

 

[Dear ol" Thankful Grower!]

@DonTesla hey buddy I have a question forgive me if it’s silly was wondering if you can clone using seaweed extract only as I’m out as my aloe Vera gel I had straight from the plant is all used up and seaweed extract is all I have I still am during perpetual so I don’t wanna just use water and wait for a month thanks for your time!happy growing

 

[Joe Blows Trees]

Does anyone know of a recipe or use flaxseed in compost/EWC/SST teas? I know I read something about them being useful but Google isn't helping out to well finding any uses in teas.

 

[DonTesla]

So apparenty now there is a 10k + uva and a 10k finisher, when I got my 2ft bulbs the 10k finisher was sold more like the 10k + uva so who really knows?

Thanks for reporting back, SSG.


@Joe Blows Trees
Want to use your spare flax do you, bud! I thought I heard it can have a spray that can make it a bit quick to go rancid and that organic may not necessarily be the best always? You can try a tiny one plant test thats weaker than your average recipe..also can use corn, mung beans, red winter wheat(grass), alfalfa seed or anything really.. but I figure many of the same principles would apply either way..

soak and rinse, soak and sprout, blend aerate for a bit then apply live etc. If doing SST's I would probably use wheatgrass.... Curious to know what you guys are all doing though / any results!

here's a thread on it, too ..
https://www.rollitup.org/t/sst-sprouted-seed-tea-dos-and-donts.803215/

@Dear ol" Thankful Grower!
A seaweed foliar before cloning can help hydrate the plant like kelp would, but I have never used it (Seaweed extract) for cloning itself per se.

I would recommend a can of pure aloe juice for $1 or so, a very good investment you can drink the rest up for your health ..

You can also buy a plant and use it for life for much more than just gardening, for as little as $5 or 10.. they like well drained sandy soil

Awesome b vitamins, among several other categories of beneficials. Its loaded.

 

[firstnamelast]

I will try simplify / re break it down like this for you (and future folks) ok mate, check this out, here's all one really needs to grow the terpy, organic killer:

Base

• 40 % best aeration you can get (suggest pumice and or biochar to start, perlite as a very last resort, can always develop this further once started, don't worry about DE unless using it for a clean top dress with cooling & pest benefits)
• 20 % fresh castings or diy vermicompost (bagged + humics being a very last resort)
• Remaining is your coir or peat or fungal compost / manure blend (to start, later to be replaced by diy compost, leaf mould or rotting wood etc)

Key "foods" to mellow in / "ferment/cook" in to the base:

Meals

• Kelp & Neem (can skip alfalfa for now, fish bone meal, & oyster/crab/crustacean meal, too if using frass)

Minerals

• Basalt & Gypsum (can get Soft Rock Phosphate & GRD as you go, scrape into topsoil anytime)

Key ingredients to get in time for first transplants:

• BSFly Frass & Endo Myco Fungi (glomus types etc which infect roots inside the cell, very beneficial)

Useful ingredients to get time for the FLIP:

• Aloe vera plant or flakes or juice
• Coconut (Young Thai, or canned, one ingredient)
• epsom salt (Mg S4 i.e. Vitamin & Mineral Enhancing foliar)

Then some steps to take once everything is started:

• Start diy "labs" (milk, rice, glass)
• Start Citrus Ferment (develop natural organic pest spray regime)
• Fungal inoculation for flowering such as Grokashi (can sub with frass, malted barley, red wheat bran, sifted oat flour, etc)

The things one can do in spring / summer / fall to make 2019 & subsequent years better / easier:

• Collect leaves for pure leaf compost (shred to speed up)
• Start outdoor compost (see @greasemonkeymann for ideas)
• Collect leaf mould & or rotting wood from forest areas

One can just worry about the black font to start, then graduate your way through the grey areas. Hope this helps! One love

Sorry man I am more of a hands on learner, I'm not trying to annoy. I really do appreciate the breakdown, all these ingredients get overwhelming right out of the gate. I'll buy everything I can find on your list to begin with. You mentioned you had a source for the frass, who do you recommend?

 

[firstnamelast]

Oh yea 1 last question: all this stuff I will need to add continually correct? Is there anything that I will probably only buy once at the beginning and never again? Good news got my seeds germinating and my lights built today I'm on my way

 

[DonTesla]

Sorry man I am more of a hands on learner. I'm not trying to annoy, I really do appreciate the breakdown, all these ingredients get overwhelming right out of the gate. I'll buy everything I can find on your list to begin with. You mentioned you had a source for the frass, who do you recommend?

You will enjoy the journey then..

Hope the font shades / bullets helped to separate the levels into 2 or 3 sets of tangible priorities..its a really fun journey just take a plunge and get pragmatic.. one step at a time.

Speaking of which, what is shipping for you to buy amended soil from BAS (Build a soil).. they sell it good to go by the cubic foot, I'm curious!

As for frass, I can send you a sample whenever checking out at, so you can see how awesome it is before investing in it, and don't have to search to find it. One less worry for the organic start always helps.

Here's a Bubba Meltdown that was what I swore was dead it was so damn thirsty it was wilted in a hump..... I hit it with some frass. Few hours later I returned and was shocked to see this:

 

[DonTesla]

Oh yea 1 last question: all this stuff I will need to add continually correct? Is there anything that I will probably only buy once at the beginning and never again? Good news got my seeds germinating and my lights built today I'm on my way

its all good saying one last question lol as a source of info for you just show some love by tossing us some 'likes' k aha

But ya! One only need to really add a mix of your meals & minerals every round (or 3) depending on recipe used.. (more often with coots recipe, including his malted barley, less often with my stronger recipes)

..all of which can then be simplified though to adding just amended compost / fresh castings when their's room or a need, once available of course, as it takes time to establish naturally.. 2 years or so if not covering or shredding leaves vs say just 6 weeks if covered in black, layered and well amended.. which can be done in winter btw.

(.. if doing no-till you wont have to continually inoculate with myco's because the old roots will keep them bumping for good. Otherwise add myco's to roots directly at all transplants)

If building your own compost, you can eliminate all peat & coir which is nice

If building premium aeration blend albeit eventually, it will also be permanent for most part / designed as such if wanting that. Biochar and pumice (along with diatomite) are perfect examples of more robust permanent aerations with multiple benefits. The decompacting aspect / humus forming aerations like rice hulls / buckwheat hulls / leaf mould / rotting wood can decompose a bit but it helps with soil life, water retention, & yield & other things.. once doing compost, this can be a part of it thus consider this part handled too.

The other stuff (aloe, coco, epsom) can be less than $5 every time you flip, no big deal to pump up the terps and potency .. the plant can be a one time investment.

Does that paint a better picture? Hope so! If you build killer castings the rest is easy.

 

[Dear ol" Thankful Grower!]

Thanks for reporting back, SSG.


@Joe Blows Trees
Want to use your spare flax do you, bud! I thought I heard it can have a spray that can make it a bit quick to go rancid and that organic may not necessarily be the best always? You can try a tiny one plant test thats weaker than your average recipe..also can use corn, mung beans, red winter wheat(grass), alfalfa seed or anything really.. but I figure many of the same principles would apply either way..

soak and rinse, soak and sprout, blend aerate for a bit then apply live etc. If doing SST's I would probably use wheatgrass.... Curious to know what you guys are all doing though / any results!

here's a thread on it, too ..
https://www.rollitup.org/t/sst-sprouted-seed-tea-dos-and-donts.803215/

@Dear ol" Thankful Grower!
A seaweed foliar before cloning can help hydrate the plant like kelp would, but I have never used it (Seaweed extract) for cloning itself per se.

I would recommend a can of pure aloe juice for $1 or so, a very good investment you can drink the rest up for your health ..

You can also buy a plant and use it for life for much more than just gardening, for as little as $5 or 10.. they like well drained sandy soil

Awesome b vitamins, among several other categories of beneficials. Its loaded.

Thanks buddy will do didn’t know aloe was so cheap I’ll grab a plant thanks again

 

[DonTesla]

The small plants are really cheap and they grow decently quick if you don't over water..
plus they make babies once established..
there is powder and flakes thatre 200 x concentrated too I wouldn't mind any of them

Pleasure though!

Thanks buddy will do didn’t know aloe was so cheap I’ll grab a plant thanks again