Drug test for welfare

Gastanker

Gastanker

Well-Known Member
shrxhky420 said:
I said I would no longer post on this thread but here I am... Gastanker you do realize that you are supporting something that is most likely unconstitutional, don't you? Can I then assume that you are a communist??? Here is an article from 2008... try and read the entire thing... http://www.aclu.org/drug-law-reform/drug-testing-public-assistance-recipients-condition-eligibility
stay high.
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Again, you must have missed my first post... Do I support it? I think right now I'm arguing against abuse of the system. Are you for abuse of the system? But lets look at the article:


  • Welfare recipients are no more likely to use drugs than the rest of the population. So? We aren't testing because we believe there is a higher rate of drug use, we're testing to make sure people are spending their money wisely/able to get a job and if you are breaking the law. Yes, you are more likely to get a job if you can pass a drug test and do not break the law.

  • Science and medical experts overwhelmingly oppose the drug testing of welfare recipients. Wait, what? Who? Why do we care? What does the opinion of private medical groups have to do with drug users and welfare?
Random drug testing of welfare recipients is fiscally irresponsible:

  • Drug testing is expensive. No, actually, if you look at the numbers it seems to be really cheap.But I too was under the impression it was expensive.

  • Mandatory drug testing is an ineffective means to uncover drug abuse. This is true, but it's a great way of determining who care more about drugs than receiving benefits/looking for work.

  • Many states have rejected the random drug testing of welfare recipients as impractical and fiscally unjustifiable. Ok, please read this section, it'll make you laugh. 'Three state talked about implementing this but decided to go a different route', wait, and the article bothered to mention this? lol.

One state has deemed it unconstitutional under a pretty weird section of the constitution. Yes I must be a communist... And everyone that voted for Obama is a socialist, and every christian hates gays, and if you smoke pot you're a terrorist.
 
Gastanker

Gastanker

Well-Known Member
dvs1038 said:
Sorry, file yes u can file for EDD without lookin for work, u just get denied its a process u have to go thru 4 the state if ur tryin to get assistance, they also at random will make u fill out this thing with info on where u applied for a job at, but that's if u get approved for EDD, but just filing doesn't mean u get the unemployment. And I was calling u a 40-year old virgin, not Neo.
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So if he is filing, and receiving benefits, and is not looking for a job... then is he receiving benefits legally? Is he fulfilling his obligation? I want to hear it from you.

I, like you, was under the impression that unemployed = looking for work. And yes, that you have to show that you're looking.
 
dvs1038

dvs1038

Well-Known Member
Well since I have recently been into DPSS offices its kinda funny they have posters up on the walls there with mug shots names and amounts that people received as a result of fraud and it shows how much time each of them is serving. But even if they guy is lying in order to receive EDD benefits ur benefits paid is based on ur most recent quarterly earnings that were reported on ur W-2, so for myself when I was getting unemployment $ I was getting the maximum allowed in Cali, which is $450 per week or $1800 a month. Also anyone receiving welfare, now this is single no kids, not sure how it works if u have kids, but u can only receive cash assistance for 9 months and u only get around $200 a month. Now once u start working the moment u start making over $620 a month ur supposed to report it and they will stop ur cash assistance. And its not required by EDD that u show proof ur lookin for work eveytime u get money, they select ppl at random to make em fill out the job search thing, once u start getting the federal edd assistance that is when u must show jobs u have applied 4 every time I think its like 6 jobs u applied for every 2 weeks.
 
Gastanker

Gastanker

Well-Known Member
So you're saying the same things as I was assuming. How was I talking out of my ass?

* I am of course, as I have never used unemployment and know little about it. But from what I understand to be unemployed you need to be looking for work... kind of goes hand in hand with the definition of unemployment. Like I've said - I could be wrong.
 
Total Head

Total Head

Well-Known Member
Gastanker said:
A family with two cars (driving them >3000 miles a month seems a bit over the top but if so say so), that owns a home, takes vacations, is setting aside money for retirement while also saving for college tuition is doing pretty well imo - and yes, that's easily obtainable making $40k/year - hell they can even have cable TV, cell phones, and eat out of the house every now and then. This is the typical American... You can even sit at home smoking pot for 3 months of the year earning 30k and still afford this - ask Neo.

Now you're saying all jobs are specialty jobs? Really? Lets list jobs than can earn more than 40k/year: General assistant, janitor, plumber, fire fighter, police officer, welder, sales person, business owner, waiter (yes I know several waiters that make more than 40k/year), bar tender, pot grower, manager (of pretty much anything), receptionist, construction worker, taxi driver, deliver man, painter, garbage man, postal man, most any government job, teacher, publicist, nanny, house cleaner, dog walker, day care attendant, ...

If you're working entry level at walmart, target, Mcdonalds, taco bell... then you're right, you won't be making a ton of money. I wouldn't recommend these lower lower tier entry level positions if you want to support a house and a family. To say the majority of jobs out there are minimum wage jobs is a bit silly.
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i swore i wouldn't even open this thread again, but i just can't let this go. almost none of those jobs pay 40k/year. receptionist? are you kidding? waiters? is everyone supposed to work at the four seasons in an affluent area? do you think your typical olive garden waiter makes 40k a year if his tax forms are legit? dog walker? i can't even tell if you're serious or not.

also welding, painting, bartending, plumbing, teaching, and some of the others you mentioned are the DEFINITION of specialty jobs. with the exception of painting they all require schooling and certification. i honestly have no idea what you were getting at here. are you suggesting that the "lazy masses" go out and start plumbing and teaching? just like that?


i also think you are underestimating the true cost of living for most people. let's assume i make 40k/year walking dogs. according to bundle.com the average american spends over 12k a year just on CAR STUFF. getting around, gas, insurance, repairs, etc. some of us spend a lot more, some less. rent around here is about 1200/month for a crappy 2 bedroom (some who are lucky can get their mortgage for this much, so this figure applies to many people), which is another 14k, so we're now up to 24k. according to the US bureau of labor statistics, the average american spends about $6500 a year on food, so we are now at $30,500. according to the US energy information administration, the average american spends $110/month on electricity, or around 1300/year, (we're now at 31,800). for those of us who have to heat our homes in the winter and use oil we can expect to pay another 2500-3500 depending on who you ask. to be fair i'll average them and call it an even 3000, so we're now at $34,800. these are the necessities. all i've done is survived and i have just over 5k left for the year. but wait! i'm still naked! i haven't puchased any clothing. i haven't bought toilet paper or shaving cream or soap or shampoo or condoms, if i'm a woman i haven't bought any tampons and other assorted lady things, i have not paid for any medical care or insurance, if i own a home i have not paid for house taxes, water and sewer taxes, property upkeep or repairs, i have no retirement money, i have not procured a cell phone, internet service, television service, i have not gone out for a beer, i have not seen a movie. and GOD FORBID i have a child, because i just starved them and fucked them out of college and healthcare. and ma can go to hell if she thinks i'm paying for a nursing home. but it's all good, because i have that leftover 5k! i'm rich! i just have no clothes or soap or toothpaste and no internet or social life.


so my question for you is this: should i bank that 5k, or should i go ahead and get some underwear and soap for the year and maybe pay my taxes?

edit: i see that you are from california, so i can understand your confusion. in the rest of the country with a few metropolitan exceptions, the idea of waiters and receptionists even making 40k is laughable.
 
Gastanker

Gastanker

Well-Known Member
Total Head said:
i swore i wouldn't even open this thread again, but i just can't let this go. almost none of those jobs pay 40k/year. receptionist? are you kidding? waiters? is everyone supposed to work at the four seasons in an affluent area? do you think your typical olive garden waiter makes 40k a year if his tax forms are legit? dog walker? i can't even tell if you're serious or not.

also welding, painting, bartending, plumbing, teaching, and some of the others you mentioned are the DEFINITION of specialty jobs. with the exception of painting they all require schooling and certification. i honestly have no idea what you were getting at here. are you suggesting that the "lazy masses" go out and start plumbing and teaching? just like that?


i also think you are underestimating the true cost of living for most people. let's assume i make 40k/year walking dogs. according to bundle.com the average american spends over 12k a year just on CAR STUFF. getting around, gas, insurance, repairs, etc. some of us spend a lot more, some less. rent around here is about 1200/month for a crappy 2 bedroom (some who are lucky can get their mortgage for this much, so this figure applies to many people), which is another 14k, so we're now up to 24k. according to the US bureau of labor statistics, the average american spends about $6500 a year on food, so we are now at $30,500. according to the US energy information administration, the average american spends $110/month on electricity, or around 1300/year, (we're now at 31,800). for those of us who have to heat our homes in the winter and use oil we can expect to pay another 2500-3500 depending on who you ask. to be fair i'll average them and call it an even 3000, so we're now at $34,800. these are the necessities. all i've done is survived and i have just over 5k left for the year. but wait! i'm still naked! i haven't puchased any clothing. i haven't bought toilet paper or shaving cream or soap or shampoo or condoms, if i'm a woman i haven't bought any tampons and other assorted lady things, i have not paid for any medical care or insurance, if i own a home i have not paid for house taxes, water and sewer taxes, property upkeep or repairs, i have no retirement money, i have not procured a cell phone, internet service, television service, i have not gon63e out for a beer, i have not seen a movie. and GOD FORBID i have a child, because i just starved them and fucked them out of college and healthcare. and ma can go to hell if she thinks i'm paying for a nursing home. but it's all good, because i have that leftover 5k! i'm rich! i just have no clothes or soap or toothpaste and no internet or social life.


so my question for you is this: should i bank that 5k, or should i go ahead and get some underwear and soap for the year and maybe pay my taxes?

edit: i see that you are from california, so i can understand your confusion. in the rest of the country with a few metropolitan exceptions, the idea of waiters and receptionists even making 40k is laughable.
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Oh god, again the assumption that if you live in America you are entitled to multiple cars per family, cell phones, internet, ... even when you choose not to work. Oh, and hi, I'm a person, I have to pay bills as well. I think I understand the cost of living.

And you realize that the "average family" those statistics are based on are making $63k/year right? Should a family making $30k/year spend the same as one making $60k/year? Or are we saying that all professions regardless of effort should pay the same?

Yes you can make $40k/year walking dogs, being a barista, receptionist, and as a waiter. You really think that's hard to believe? Fuck, I know several receptionists making well over 100k. Yes, some of those are specialty jobs, I was just listing professions that can make $40k/year... but technically anyone can be a bartender, most bartenders I know did not attend bar-tending school or any other specialty training.

God forbid people live within their means. Blown away at how many people here are against that notion.

** Aside from a few metropolitan areas the thought of spending $1200/month on a small 2 bedroom apartment is laughable. And you realize the average person isn't on welfare right?
 
Total Head

Total Head

Well-Known Member
Gastanker said:
Oh god, again the assumption that if you live in America you are entitled to multiple cars per family, cell phones, internet, ... even when you choose not to work. Oh, and hi, I'm a person, I have to pay bills as well. I think I understand the cost of living.

And you realize that the "average family" those statistics are based on are making $63k/year right? Should a family making $30k/year spend the same as one making $60k/year? Or are we saying that all professions regardless of effort should pay the same?

Yes you can make $40k/year walking dogs, being a barista, receptionist, and as a waiter. You really think that's hard to believe? Fuck, I know several receptionists making well over 100k. Yes, some of those are specialty jobs, I was just listing professions that can make $40k/year... but technically anyone can be a bartender, most bartenders I know did not attend bar-tending school or any other specialty training.

God forbid people live within their means. Blown away at how many people here are against that notion.

** Aside from a few metropolitan areas the thought of spending $1200/month on a small 2 bedroom apartment is laughable. And you realize the average person isn't on welfare right?
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i didn't say small, i said crappy. and that's what things cost here. the fact is that 40k is a useless figure because it doesn't take into account cost of living. i could take that 40k to an african village and live like a king. that isn't the point. you do realize that i used actual figures to prove that not only is 40k barely enough for a single person to go to work, come home, look at a wall, go to bed, and repeat, but if that single person had a child or cared for personal hygiene they would be destitute. i didn't include incidentals and basic toiletries or health care. i'm glad you think that this is a swell way to live.

40k is a pipe dream for entry level positions. unexperienced bartenders don't just waltz into an establishment and get a saturday night shift. most have to at least barback first. my county requires certification, and even after you are certified and have humped behind the bar for 6 months, you still get tuesday nights unless you're banging the owner. people who serve coffee in an average town do not make 40k. that's completely absurd.

according to indeed.com, the average barista salary is 22k a year, and average salaries for barista job postings are 69% less than all job postings. the site also says that the average receptionist makes 27k. it also says that the average dog walker also makes 27k a year. this was the only site i could find that even listed baristas and dog walkers. your "knowing someone who makes x amount" does not trump the national data. the amount of money one makes as a waiter or bartender has a lot to do with where the establishment is. city folk fare a hell of a lot better than rural folk in this area, which is a small consolation when they are paying up to 40% more to live in that city.
 
Gastanker

Gastanker

Well-Known Member
Total Head said:
i didn't say small, i said crappy. and that's what things cost here. the fact is that 40k is a useless figure because it doesn't take into account cost of living. i could take that 40k to an african village and live like a king. that isn't the point. you do realize that i used actual figures to prove that not only is 40k barely enough for a single person to go to work, come home, look at a wall, go to bed, and repeat, but if that single person had a child or cared for personal hygiene they would be destitute. i didn't include incidentals and basic toiletries or health care. i'm glad you think that this is a swell way to live.

40k is a pipe dream for entry level positions. unexperienced bartenders don't just waltz into an establishment and get a saturday night shift. most have to at least barback first. my county requires certification, and even after you are certified and have humped behind the bar for 6 months, you still get tuesday nights unless you're banging the owner. people who serve coffee in an average town do not make 40k. that's completely absurd.

according to indeed.com, the average barista salary is 22k a year, and average salaries for barista job postings are 69% less than all job postings. the site also says that the average receptionist makes 27k. it also says that the average dog walker also makes 27k a year. this was the only site i could find that even listed baristas and dog walkers. your "knowing someone who makes x amount" does not trump the national data. the amount of money one makes as a waiter or bartender has a lot to do with where the establishment is. city folk fare a hell of a lot better than rural folk in this area, which is a small consolation when they are paying up to 40% more to live in that city.
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You used actual figures of what a family earning 60k a year spends... How does what a family earning 60k have anything to do with how much you need to comfortably get by? And no, a 10k/year vacation, two cars, cell phones, cable tv... is not necessary to live a comfortable life.




I don't know what to say about the statement that you can't live comfortably on $40k/year... I just know far too many people that would disagree.

And I love that you state that just because I know multiple people making $40k walking dogs that it shouldn't matter while you state "and that's what things cost here." Hmmm... yeah, so either both are valid or neither. These are actual numbers you realize? I know actual people that live within their means...

But out of curiosity where does all of this tie in with the conversation? Are you saying the government should give handouts to all families earning $40k/year and less? Are you encouraging people to raise families on the income of a barista? What's your point other than you and your friends spending beyond their means?

If you earn less than $40k/year it's ok to scam the system? Is that what you're getting at?
 
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purklize

Active Member
Wow... just wow... Again, this is the problem.


$10,000/year in vacations lol... o wow...
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You said a family of four could live a middle class lifestyle off 40k/year pre-tax income. A middle class lifestyle includes vacations. $5000 is a bargain for a one week vacation for a family of four.

Thank you for posting this chart: http://www.visualeconomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/wheredidthemoneygo.jpg

It proves my point. They simply run out of money every year. That chart only accounts for essentials. They aren't preparing seriously for college or retirement anywhere on there.
But out of curiosity where does all of this tie in with the conversation? Are you saying the government should give handouts to all families earning $40k/year and less?
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No. The government should be overthrown, the assets of the rich and powerful seized, and the economy turned a worker's economy - democratic ownership and administration. No band-aid fixes.
 
Gastanker

Gastanker

Well-Known Member
purklize said:


You said a family of four could live a middle class lifestyle off 40k/year pre-tax income. A middle class lifestyle includes vacations. $5000 is a bargain for a one week vacation for a family of four.

Thank you for posting this chart: http://www.visualeconomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/wheredidthemoneygo.jpg

It proves my point. They simply run out of money every year. That chart only accounts for essentials. They aren't preparing seriously for college or retirement anywhere on there.

No. We should overthrow the government, seize the assets of the rich and powerful, and turn the economy into a worker's economy. No band-aid fixes.
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Wait, were you the one that accused me of being communist? lol...

$5000/week for vacation is CRAZY! I can't think of a single doctor friend (and I have quite a few) that spends anywhere near $5k a year annually on vacations. Wow, oh wow, talk about entitlement and head in the clouds. Yeah, no wonder you run out of money.
 
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purklize

Active Member
Wait, were you the one that accused me of being communist? lol...

$5000/week for vacation is CRAZY! I can't think of a single doctor friend (and I have quite a few) that spends anywhere near $5k a year annually on vacations. Wow, oh wow, talk about entitlement and head in the clouds. Yeah, no wonder you run out of money.
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Nah, you're thinking of someone else.

Try to budget for a vacation for a family of four. Look up the plane tickets and the hotel reservations and the rental cars, and then factor in food. So far you haven't been very good at math. You thought my numbers for the cost of two cars ($8400/year) were wildly wrong (your chart estimated $8758/year in transportation on average). Similarly, the average cost of housing, $16920/year, is a lot more than I estimated.
 
Gastanker

Gastanker

Well-Known Member
purklize said:
Nah, you're thinking of someone else.

Try to budget for a vacation for a family of four. Look up the plane tickets and the hotel reservations and the rental cars, and then factor in food. So far you haven't been very good at math. You thought my numbers for the cost of two cars ($8400/year) were wildly wrong (your chart estimated $8758/year in transportation on average). Similarly, the average cost of housing, $16920/year, is a lot more than I estimated.
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So according to travelocity I can get round trip tickets for four, with two hotel rooms, in Hawaii, for a week, for $750/person... Two week long vacations in Hawaii is EXTRAVAGANT! That's NOT NORMAL. How can you possibly think that's acceptable spending? A two week camping vacation for four can be planned for less than $500. If you wanted everyone to eat a steak a night and you include the purchase of all new equipment (tent, sleeping bags, stove,...) it would cost ~$1200... for TWO WEEKS.

Do you purchase every member of your family a vehicle per trip or something? And did your family really take two extravagant vacations a year? Bit spoilt eh?

 
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purklize

Active Member
So now middle class families don't deserve to travel?

Amazing how little you think working people deserve, considering they have designed and built our entire world and made every scientific breakthrough in history. just hand it all over to the rich. We know they earned it. Right...

Do you purchase every member of your family a vehicle per trip or something? And did your family really take two extravagant vacations a year? Bit spoilt eh?
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No, I actually have lived a spartan life all of my days. Every vacation (and there weren't many) I took as a kid was spent staying with family in the UP. But if you want to say that middle class families can live the good life, then you have to include travel.
 
Gastanker

Gastanker

Well-Known Member
purklize said:
So now middle class families don't deserve to travel?

Amazing how little you think working people deserve, considering they have designed and built our entire world and made every scientific breakthrough in history. just hand it all over to the rich. We know they earned it. Right...



No, I actually have lived a spartan life all of my days. Every vacation (and there weren't many) I took as a kid was spent staying with family in the UP. But if you want to say that middle class families can live the good life, then you have to include travel.
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So a single week long vacation in HI wouldn't be enough for you? That would cost ~$3500... Not the >$10k you are talking about. Would a road trip to the grandcanyon not be a good vacation? How about a week on a house boat? That costs ~$750-~$1000/week. By all means people should travel and take vacations but to do it twice a year every year and to spend 1/3 your annual income on it when you make $30k/year is nuts.

Guess how often the average person takes a vacation.
 
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purklize

Active Member
Wow, did you really just budget $500 for hotels, transportation, tourist traps and food? You said it was $750 per ticket, so for four that's $3000... And the $10k is for TWO vacations, not one.

I would certainly encourage people to take modest vacations in this time. But you can't say the middle class gets to live the high life off $40k pre-tax income if they can't travel.

Guess how often the average person takes a vacation.
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I don't need to guess, I know it. I take one a year at best and it's spent visiting family. My last one was three days long.

Besides, the fact the average worker in the US is highly exploited, only paid for a tiny fraction of the value of their labor, does not make exploitation okay. Productivity in this country rises, and rises, and yet our wages only fall. And despite the bottom half of Americans consuming less than 1% of the economic output of this country, they are somehow blamed for the problems with the economy.

If all wages and investment incomes were divided equally among workers, the average annual salary would be about $100,000. Right now most people are probably making about $12 an hour.

Every time I prove you wrong on something you change the subject or shift the debate. I wasn't discussing whether it was wise to spend $10,000 a year on vacations with a $30,000 income. I was explaining that you can't live a baller lifestyle off that - or even prepare for the future. It's just enough to survive.
 
Gastanker

Gastanker

Well-Known Member
purklize said:
Wow, did you really just budget $500 for hotels, transportation, tourist traps and food? You said it was $750 per ticket, so for four that's $3000... And the $10k is for TWO vacations, not one.

I would certainly encourage people to take modest vacations in this time. But you can't say the middle class gets to live the high life off $40k pre-tax income if they can't travel.



I don't need to guess, I know it. I take one a year at best and it's spent visiting family.

Every time I prove you wrong on something you change the subject or shift the debate. I wasn't discussing whether it was wise to spend $10,000 a year on vacations with a $30,000 income. I was explaining that you can't live a baller lifestyle off that - or even prepare for the future. It's just enough to survive.
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Lol, $750 is for round trip tickets and inclusive hotel. Again, you must have big pockets to be so use to spending so lavishly. Two vacations a year?! Are you rich?

What did you prove wrong? And where am I saying that a family making $40k/year is living the high life?
 
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purklize

Active Member
Lol, $750 is for round trip tickets and inclusive hotel. Again, you must have big pockets to be so use to spending so lavishly. Two vacations a year?! Are you rich?
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Are you brain damaged? I have never been on a vacation like that. I already explained this.

What did you prove wrong? And where am I saying that a family making $40k/year is living the high life?
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You said you could live very nicely off a $40k salary. You have yet to prove anything to that effect. Even your own data contradicts that point. Luxury spending accounts for $3478 on that chart (that amounts to $3.80 per day for that average household of 2.5 people), the rest goes straight to necessities. Nowhere on there is money budgeted for vacations, college tuition, or retirement.
 
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