Elons Little Plan

cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
DIY-HP-LED said:
Because they are so closely monitored and highly instrumented all up testing is feasible these days, it was first done with the Saturn V moon rocket as a desperate measure to stay on schedule. Stage separation is a pretty well-known thing and they fucked up on something fundamental and never had a backup system or program to kick in.
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I think it depended on hydraulics. Somewhere I read someone who thought loss of hydraulic pressure could account for the stuck stage and a loss of thrust vectoring.
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Dr.Amber Trichome said:
The dust and vibrations of the rocket blast have toxic after effects on towns more than 6 miles away. Reports of shattered window and shaking the ground . People are having difficulty breathing from pollution in the air. The sound was deafening. How horrific.
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I read that and a new launch location is required, but Elon is very powerful and popular with magats. He is not popular with the Biden administration however and this shit is their call.
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Bagginski said:
Hydraulics are woefully under-appreciated: with an adequately pressurized container, many things become possible
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I’ve been reading the thread on the Nasa spaceflight forum. The pad on which the launch ring sat was flat concrete — no flame diverter or water flood system. The hot fast exhaust did a number on that, and flying chunks of concrete precipitated several failures, including both hydraulic pressure units failing in flight. Without hydraulics, no more steering, and right after the big flame near the two-minute mark (a wet burp of hydraulic fluid into the jet?) the rocket started into plainly unguided flight.

The Mollusk wagered that since the pad stood a brief static fire at 50% power, it would hold up under a full-power launch. It practically exploded … some very big splashes in the water hundreds of yards away. So the operational end of the device took shrapnel. It is amazing it worked as well and as long as it did.

One wag noted that they had a reusable rocket, and an expendable pad.

 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
cannabineer said:
I’ve been reading the thread on the Nasa spaceflight forum. The pad on which the launch ring sat was flat concrete — no flame diverter or water flood system. The hot fast exhaust did a number on that, and flying chunks of concrete precipitated several failures, including both hydraulic pressure units failing in flight. Without hydraulics, no more steering, and right after the big flame near the two-minute mark (a wet burp of hydraulic fluid into the jet?) the rocket started into plainly unguided flight.

The Mollusk wagered that since the pad stood a brief static fire at 50% power, it would hold up under a full-power launch. It practically exploded … some very big splashes in the water hundreds of yards away. So the operational end of the device took shrapnel. It is amazing it worked as well and as long as it did.

One wag noted that they had a reusable rocket, and an expendable pad.

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To me, this whole thing smacks of managers who ignored their experts. When I read of how gleeful the room was about the explosion and how they are going to learn so much from this failure, I wondered at their process. System-level tests like that are used when the team has done everything they could ensure success. The team should be surprised and disappointed when it failed. Only then does a test like that help them find out what they could not have known. So now you tell us that the failure was due to an inadequate launch pad? That they are repeating old failures and learnings from the past? I'm disgusted. All they demonstrated it they aren't up to the task. Failures are inevitable but should not be celebrated.
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
Fogdog said:
To me, this whole thing smacks of managers who ignored their experts. When I read of how gleeful the room was about the explosion and how they are going to learn so much from this failure, I wondered at their process. System-level tests like that are used when the team has done everything they could ensure success. Only then does a test like that help them find out what they could not know. So now you tell us that the failure was due to an inadequate launch pad? That they are repeating old failures and learnings from the past? I'm disgusted. All they demonstrated it they aren't up to the task.
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Apparently the Mollusk fired a very senior engineer who kept harping on the need for a better launch structure. Blast diverter, flame trench, deluge system like the OGs learned they needed for the heavies down on the Cape. Fantastic amounts of acoustic energy in a semiconfined space, which the water cascade tames. Spelon gambled and lost on an inadequate pad.

That said, Spacex is his best-run enterprise, so I expect rapid adaptation to the (coarsely) ground truth. Next test should be more about the vehicle.
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
Fogdog said:
To me, this whole thing smacks of managers who ignored their experts. When I read of how gleeful the room was about the explosion and how they are going to learn so much from this failure, I wondered at their process. System-level tests like that are used when the team has done everything they could ensure success. The team should be surprised and disappointed when it failed. Only then does a test like that help them find out what they could not have known. So now you tell us that the failure was due to an inadequate launch pad? That they are repeating old failures and learnings from the past? I'm disgusted. All they demonstrated it they aren't up to the task. Failures are inevitable but should not be celebrated.
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Math alone should have predicted what would happen to the pad, no thrust diverter and no water system, because Elon wants it to take off from mars. Elon made this call about the pad and said so, engineers advised him otherwise, but Elon figured he knew better. He has no business being there, being CEO of three different companies is absurd The CEO of SapceX should have made the call about the pad after taking the advice of experts. There is a considerable knowledge base about this shit accumulated by NASA, it was entirely predictable and was.
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
DIY-HP-LED said:
Math alone should have predicted what would happen to the pad, no thrust diverter and no water system, because Elon wants it to take off from mars. Elon made this call about the pad and said so, engineers advised him otherwise, but Elon figured he knew better. He has no business being there, being CEO of three different companies is absurd The CEO of SapceX should have made the call about the pad after taking the advice of experts. There is a considerable knowledge base about this shit accumulated by NASA, it was entirely predictable and was.
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isn’t Twitter #4?

also, engineering, not math. What makes an engineer is having a good idea what starting values to use; math is just the subsequent reduction.
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
cannabineer said:
isn’t Twitter #4?

also, engineering, not math. What makes an engineer is having a good idea what starting values to use; math is just the subsequent reduction.
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Dunno, but he should have three CEOs under him running the companies and not be inserting himself like Trump and for the same reasons Trump would too. These are 3 completely different businesses and how can someone manage them if Elon walks through the door at critical moments with a brain fart and capriciously and publicly fires and humiliates the experts who disagree with him or who even present him with inconvenient fact.
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
cannabineer said:
isn’t Twitter #4?

also, engineering, not math. What makes an engineer is having a good idea what starting values to use; math is just the subsequent reduction.
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Engineers use math based on measurements and previous experiment some done long ago. People at NASA developed the formulas based on extensive experience and measurements, and all an engineer has to do these days is plug in the numbers and work the math.
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
DIY-HP-LED said:
Engineers use math based on measurements and previous experiment some done long ago. People at NASA developed the formulas based on extensive experience and measurements, and all an engineer has to do these days is plug in the numbers and work the math.
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You get the numbers by doing. The SH vehicle and mount are so far past previous experience that the error approached the value. This experience gives them some pluggables-in far superior to extrapolating from dubiously comparable data.
 
DIY-HP-LED

DIY-HP-LED

Well-Known Member
cannabineer said:
You get the numbers by doing. The SH vehicle and mount are so far past previous experience that the error approached the value. This experience gives them some pluggables-in far superior to extrapolating from dubiously comparable data.
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Then why did every civil engineer worth a fuck know what would happen? Experience most likely, but there is enough data to base predictions on, you don't build bridges without math, and you shouldn't build launch stands without it either. The physical properties of reinforced concrete are well known, and they knew what kind of forces they were dealing with. It was an unforced error made by Elon himself.
 
cannabineer

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
DIY-HP-LED said:
Then why did every civil engineer worth a fuck
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useless insertion of subjective value judgment
know what would happen? Experience most likely, but there is enough data to base predictions on, you don't build bridges without math,
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goalpost move; I never argued this
and you shouldn't build launch stands without it either. The physical properties of reinforced concrete are well known, and they knew what kind of forces they were dealing with.
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Unwarranted assumption: linear scaling
It was an unforced error made by Elon himself.
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For a guy with engineering-heavy interests, you sometimes do not think like an engineer.
 
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