Ethical Dilemma

RainbowBrite86 said:

Ok whoa, you don't have to get hateful. It's a hypothetical question at best, and it was just to have a conversation. I never ever claimed to be the one who should decide who does and does not get to reproduce. For the record, i'm just toking and talking like the thread is intended for. I'm not recruiting people for forceful sterilizations.

Maybe someday the government will start deciding who gets to reproduce and who doesn't so they can control what characteristics are being passed on...

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Hitler tried eugenics. Certainly there are many wealthy and powerful families who have an extensive history of supporting such garbage and it isn't something that went away. You make an absurd suggestion (even for a discussion as there no moral way to enforce such policy), expect to get called out on it. And his point wasn't merely to be insulting. It was a legitimately good point that has apparently flown right over your head.

RainbowBrite86 said:

There are doctors who will sterilize a person, minor or not, who is mentally handicapped. In my opinion it's necessary in these circumstances because these people aren't able to defend themselves and sometimes can't even speak up about what people are doing to them. It would be awful to have your mentally handicapped daughter pregnant and not even understanding what's going on. Should we sterilize people who have terrible genetic diseases? I mean...if this is about protecting innocent children, what's worse? Sterilizing someone who may not want it, or a baby dying a horrible death like Tay-Sachs disease because their parents wanted to see if they would come out OK?

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So you're a eugenicist then?

it's not because she was going to run out and get pregnant. It's that she was a 16 year old girl who couldn't do anything but lie there and couldn't say anything that happened. She was exceptionally vulnerable to getting pregnant. And it's not that the child may have been born worthless or a rapist, it's that there's no feasible way she could have made that decision herself. How is it fair to her to have to bear the child of some man she never even knew; someone who she didn't consent to even having sex with, much less bearing a child with. It's her body...I mean...really if there was any of her left up there I only hope she didn't ever realize she was pregnant. I think that would be awful, to just be in bed carrying some guys baby and you can't say anything, can't even name the baby yourself. It's sad.

OGEvilgenius said:

Hitler tried eugenics. Certainly there are many wealthy and powerful families who have an extensive history of supporting such garbage and it isn't something that went away. You make an absurd suggestion (even for a discussion as there no moral way to enforce such policy), expect to get called out on it. And his point wasn't merely to be insulting. It was a legitimately good point that has apparently flown right over your head.

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You're wrong actually. No one's opinion has flown over my head. Although I have debated the other side and played the devil's advocate, I was paying attention to what other people said and I do take other people's perspective into consideration. please don't assume that just because I kept the conversation about it going that everything besides my own opinion is "flying right over my head".

I agree that it is sad that this happened to her, but she is ultimately never going to be responsible for this baby and who knows, maybe this baby makes an otherwise sad situation not so sad. Maybe this baby invents deep space travel? How are you to ever know or judge? I always err on the side of life. And yes I am against abortion (for logical, not religious reasons) as birth control as well. In a case where the mother might die, it should be an option. In a case of a rape, it should be an option if the woman is able to make her own decisions. In the case of your person I would not support abortion because she is not capable of that decision and the baby is never going to be her responsibility in the first place (in other words, not much changes for the girl, the baby could be put up for adoption or the girls parents could take care of it if they wanted to).

I am ALL for strerilizing people on welfare. Perhaps even after they have had a couple kids, but there are a hundred thousand people making babies as a source of gov't wlefare income. The more they have, teh more they get. If you cannot take care fo yourself, you have no business bringing more mouths into the picture and making working folks pay for them.

Maybe that's where our opposition stems from, then. I'm for women's rights, and I think a woman's body is her own, including during the time she's pregnant. For me, i'd rather see a woman have her tubes tied than have an abortion. You're choosing not to create life, instead of choosing to take life after it's already begun.

Originally Posted by Brick Top

If you think the planet is in such terrible shape and doomed to become horribly overpopulated to a point where you can actually believe that the forced sterilization of children, with the decision being made by their parents, is conceivable, than maybe you should just step off the planet and make a little more room for someone else who might make better use of the space.

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RainbowBrite86 said:

I didn't say all that. I was just having this conversation with a few friends and wanted to hear some more opinions. I hear a lot of people say things like rapists should be forcefully sterilized, felons, etc. I didn't mean to get all "but what about the children?!!" I'm just asking people's opinions is all.

But for the record the whole "I don't agree with you, you should just go die" thing is really not helpful in a discussion.

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Clearly you lack education as severely as you lack knowledge of right or wrong. You put the above in red in quotation marks. That is not just a way to highlight something or draw attention to it. That means you are quoting, exactly, word for word, what someone else said.

I never said what you incorrectly quoted me as having said. Those were words that you made up yourself and attempted to portray as having been my words, with your use of quotation marks.



OK, do you want an answer that might be more of what you were hoping for?

Is being a rapist genetically passed on from one generation to the next? If so, in what percent or to what degree will the son of a rapist end up a rapist himself? If it is not genetic, or only an extremely low percentage of male children inherit the gene, then would it make much sense to clip some lil guy based on little to low probability of following in his old man's footsteps?

And unless it is genetic, and a high percentage of sons of rapists end up rapists, don't you think the mother should be able to raise her child better than whoever rose the rapist? Can't she teach him right from wrong, respect for all, and even more so for women?

If she can't do that she should put the child up for adoption because she would be an unfit mother regardless of what genetics the lil guy might be carrying.

While it may be claimed that the only reason is to save some other innocent young woman from suffering the same fate, is smells of revenge or vengeance towards the one who raped her. She can make sure that at least this one child of his won't carry on his bloodline, and nipping the kid could be cathartic to her in that it, to her, could be symbolic of her rapist being snipped, now, or how she likely wished he would have been, in the past. She can't do anything more again the rapist, but she can take it out on his/her kid.

She should put the child up for adoption. If not, considering her current fears, when will she stop looking at him like a future, or likely future, rapist? Will she cringe when he discovers girls? Will she continually expect the police to show up at her door or get a call saying he's been arrested for rape?

She was 5 months along, still getting her periods

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Can you get your period while you're pregnant?



No. You can't have your menstrual period while you're pregnant.



Some women do have vaginal bleeding during pregnancy. Some even report intermittent bleeding that seems like a regular period to them. But vaginal bleeding during pregnancy is not the same thing as menstruation.

What's the difference?
Menstruation only happens when you're not pregnant: Each month, your uterus grows a thick blood-rich lining in preparation for an egg to embed there. If you don't get pregnant that month, you shed this tissue and blood – that's your menstrual period.

But once an egg embeds in the uterine lining, hormones tell the blood-rich tissue to stay intact to support the growing baby. And you won't shed it and start having your period again until your pregnancy is over.

Then why do some women bleed during pregnancy?
Bleeding occurs during pregnancy for various reasons, some serious and some not.

Some women have light bleeding or spotting very early in pregnancy – around the time their period is due – and they may mistake that for a period. This so-called "implantation bleeding" may be caused by the fertilized egg burrowing into the blood-rich lining of the uterus. It's generally a lot lighter than a typical period and lasts just a day or two.

You may have spotting after a Pap smear, vaginal exam, or sex. This is because there's more blood going to your cervix during pregnancy.

Bleeding can also be a sign of something seriously wrong, such as a miscarriage or an ectopic pregnancy, which can be life-threatening. (See our article on vaginal bleeding in pregnancy for a complete rundown of possible causes.)

If you notice bleeding, call your doctor or midwife right away, even if the bleeding has stopped. Many women who bleed a little during pregnancy deliver without complications, but you may need an evaluation to rule out a serious problem.

If you're actively bleeding or have severe pain of any kind and can't immediately reach your practitioner, head straight to the emergency room.

http://www.babycenter.com/404_can-you-get-your-period-while-youre-pregnant_7102.bc

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RainbowBrite86 said:

Maybe that's where our opposition stems from, then. I'm for women's rights, and I think a woman's body is her own, including during the time she's pregnant. For me, i'd rather see a woman have her tubes tied than have an abortion. You're choosing not to create life, instead of choosing to take life after it's already begun.

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i don't consider a baby a baby when it has no brain or spine. it's just ccells. it's not even an embryo before the 5th week and even at that point, it's VERYY basic cells without any sort of brain activity (brain activity doesn't begin until around 24 weeks). people shouldn't think of cells as a baby.

what is really disturbing are the embryos that are kept frozen for future use and discarded because people simply don't want to store them anymore. all those same people claim to be prolife. i guess it's ok to throw out a developed embryo but for some reason there is a problem with abortion? it makes no sense.

but of course, those POOR people had trouble conceiving so it's acceptable to try ANYTHING to get pregnant and never question whether it is humane to toss a fetus.

OK. I will work on my quotation marks and misuse of the word "period". In all fairness, when girls are talking amongst themselves they usually call it their period when they're bleeding, whether or not it actually is her period, because we just all know what she's talking about. Meanwhile, I hope you work on expressing your opinion without being hostile and insulting.

I think that chalking every rapist up to bad parenting is naive. I would be interested in finding out exactly how much of your actions are related to your DNA. And if it were so low a possibility as you suggested then I would probably change my mind about that particular situation.

medicalmaryjane said:

i don't consider a baby a baby when it has no brain or spine. it's just ccells. it's not even an embryo before the 5th week and even at that point, it's VERYY basic cells without any sort of brain activity (brain activity doesn't begin until around 24 weeks). people shouldn't think of cells as a baby.

what is really disturbing are the fetuses that are kept frozen for future use and discarded because people simply don't want to store them anymore. all those same people claim to be prolife. i guess it's ok to throw out a developed fetus but for some reason there is a problem with abortion? it makes no sense.

but of course, those POOR people had trouble conceiving so it's acceptable to try ANYTHING to get pregnant and never question whether it is humane to toss a fetus.

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That's sad too...

When I think about hearing the pidder patter of little feet around the house, one thing always comes to mind.

How fun it would have to be to have a midget butler.

cannabineer said:

Come to think of it, they should have their parents sterilized.
Retroactively. cn

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...just send them to fukushima. Oh! ...sorry, read that wrong

Im kinda mixed on the subject, i wanna believe that an innocent child can be raised by wonderful people and not become the rapist but it's hard to ignore the fact that some people are just bad

april said:

Im kinda mixed on the subject, i wanna believe that an innocent child can be raised by wonderful people and not become the rapist but it's hard to ignore the fact that some people are just bad

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...salut Avril, Cali? wud da? <---that's french for 'what the?'

april said:

Im kinda mixed on the subject, i wanna believe that an innocent child can be raised by wonderful people and not become the rapist but it's hard to ignore the fact that some people are just bad

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See that's exactly where i'm at. I'm not adamantly for or against either side, but...I also don't think that the word 'child' is necessarily synonymous with 'innocent'. Sometimes things are just wired wrong in a person's DNA and no amount of perfect parenting can fix it.

RainbowBrite86 said:

Maybe that's where our opposition stems from, then. I'm for women's rights, and I think a woman's body is her own, including during the time she's pregnant. For me, i'd rather see a woman have her tubes tied than have an abortion. You're choosing not to create life, instead of choosing to take life after it's already begun.

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If that is your feeling then I assume you are against forced child support as well?

eye exaggerate said:

...salut Avril, Cali? wud da? <---that's french for 'what the?'

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Bonjour mon ami, lol yes i am, in the blink of an eye so many things can happen

OGEvilgenius said:

If that is your feeling then I assume you are against forced child support as well?

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I am. Everyone has choices. You can't force a man to stay in a child's life if he doesn't want to just the same as you shouldn't force a woman to have a child.

RainbowBrite86 said:

See that's exactly where i'm at. I'm not adamantly for or against either side, but...I also don't think that the word 'child' is necessarily synonymous with 'innocent'. Sometimes things are just wired wrong in a person's DNA and no amount of perfect parenting can fix it.

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So very true, very good people raise horrible people, regardless of the affection and attention a child is given nothing can change how they think as an individual person, if they crave the rush from doing bad things or hurting people this is something wrong with them not the people who tried to guide them, no amount or horror movies, bad music or shitty parenting will make a person become a serial killer, well within reason, if the parents are totaly psycho the child will parrot their behavior since it's all they know, but i know great people who have sloppy addict parents. Who u are depends on so many factors