Ethical Dilemma

WHERE? are you in the south?

OGEvilgenius said:

Except the guy has no say in the abortion. I am all for mandatory child support. I just don't support the right to arbitrarily choose whether someone lives or dies (as I stated before I support the choice in cases of rape or complications, but that isn't so arbitrary). Women get abortions without consulting their man all the time and ultimately the man has absolutely no say in the matter. Quite frankly it's a bad mentality that creates problems in society IMO and reduces expectations on men greatly (as well as creating resentment). The woman can also always put the child up for adoption.

Click to expand...

i really don't want to go down this road but the guy "had a say" when he was balls deep in the chick. sex=babies. i'm pretty sure most men know this. it's just a real bitch now that there's dna testing. no getting out of that shit.

if you extend the logic of your own opinion, you prove exactly why men SHOULDN'T have a say in whether the kid gets aborted. if the guy didn't want a kid, he should have wrapped it up. if he DID want a kid, he should have chosen better than someone who doesn't share his viewpoint. in other words, use the big head once in a while.

as far as the "expectations on men", i agree with you there. but don't lie. if a woman "forgot her pill" one day and a baby happened, the dude would be fucking pissed. as a stoner i can say that remembering to take a pill every day is quite an "expectation" in itself.

isn't it ironic that the most effective birth control is the least desirable? rubbers kill the sensation for guys and the pill makes a lot of chicks fat and crazy. lol. we need to come up with something, just not forced sterilization.

I don't think any person or law should be able to tell any person what they can do with their own body. It's mine, I was born with it and not you, so if you don't like what I do to it, please gofuckself immed, pretty much.
If I were a female and I somehow lost my mind and decided to screw the entire world bareback, and I then did not want the pregnancies that resulted, I would respect your right to not like me for aborting, but it would be my burden to live with (or ignore or however people deal with things) and zero of your business.
To me, the bottom line is this. Some things are just nobody's business or decision but your own, and this is clearly one of those things.
If some asshole brought their gods into my decision while judging me, they had better hope they have a way to prove it's existence (like bring him/her/it over for dinner) or I would just piss all over that with extreme malice. Again, figuratively.

To whom it may concern: Yes, the wording of this post is harsh. On purpose.
.

Total Head said:

i really don't want to go down this road but the guy "had a say" when he was balls deep in the chick. sex=babies. i'm pretty sure most men know this. it's just a real bitch now that there's dna testing. no getting out of that shit.

Click to expand...

And the girl had a say when she accepted him inside of her.

if you extend the logic of your own opinion, you prove exactly why men SHOULDN'T have a say in whether the kid gets aborted. if the guy didn't want a kid, he should have wrapped it up. if he DID want a kid, he should have chosen better than someone who doesn't share his viewpoint. in other words, use the big head once in a while.

Click to expand...

If a girl didn't want a kid she should have demanded he wrap it up or been on birth control. What is different is there is an actual life on the line here and more than one person is potentially going to be impacted by it. And yeah, I think sex is a bit too casual these days at times.

as far as the "expectations on men", i agree with you there. but don't lie. if a woman "forgot her pill" one day and a baby happened, the dude would be fucking pissed. as a stoner i can say that remembering to take a pill every day is quite an "expectation" in itself.

isn't it ironic that the most effective birth control is the least desirable? rubbers kill the sensation for guys and the pill makes a lot of chicks fat and crazy. lol. we need to come up with something, just not forced sterilization.

Click to expand...

More anal.

JohnnyGreenfingers said:

I don't think any person or law should be able to tell any person what they can do with their own body. It's mine, I was born with it and not you, so if you don't like what I do to it, please gofuckself immed, pretty much.
If I were a female and I somehow lost my mind and decided to screw the entire world bareback, and I then did not want the pregnancies that resulted, I would respect your right to not like me for aborting, but it would be my burden to live with (or ignore or however people deal with things) and zero of your business.
To me, the bottom line is this. Some things are just nobody's business or decision but your own, and this is clearly one of those things.
If some asshole brought their gods into my decision while judging me, they had better hope they have a way to prove it's existence (like bring him/her/it over for dinner) or I would just piss all over that with extreme malice. Again, figuratively.

To whom it may concern: Yes, the wording of this post is harsh. On purpose.
.

Click to expand...

Some of us believe that calling a fetus anything other than human is a rationalization and shifting of definitions for the purposes of justifying selfish actions. It's a pretty legitimate position I'm afraid. It has little to do with God or lack of God.

OGEvilgenius said:

Some of us believe that calling a fetus anything other than human is a rationalization and shifting of definitions for the purposes of justifying selfish actions. It's a pretty legitimate position I'm afraid. It has little to do with God or lack of God.

Click to expand...

it's not a fetus until 10 weeks.

OGEvilgenius said:

Some of us believe that calling a fetus anything other than human is a rationalization and shifting of definitions for the purposes of justifying selfish actions. It's a pretty legitimate position I'm afraid. It has little to do with God or lack of God.

Click to expand...

No, sir. With all due respect, this is where "some of us" think they have the right to place their fucking OPINIONS or beliefs on my body.

There are living organisms in my shit too, who I'm quite sure do not appreciate being flushed to their death. Are you going to cry for them too?
It's mine, it's in my body, and like anything else of mine that your self righteous delusion might cause you to think you have a say over, I will do with it whatever the fuck I choose, whenever the fuck I choose to.
Since, as of today, we're still in a "free country" where wackjobs can't tell me not to have an abortion, that's just the fucking way it is, until you get enough freaks with votes to do something about it. And if that ever did happen, I promise that on our way to Canada, my kind would revolt and burn you and your kind to the ground. To the fucking ground, sir.

That being said, I totally respect your right to an opinion, even if it is full to the point of overflowing with douchebaggery.
I'm glad we had this discussion. I know you won't change your mind, but I do take comfort in the knowledge that in the eyes of the law, I can go have twelve abortions tomorrow if I have the cash to pay for them, and all you can do about it is piss and whine on teh intarwebz.
/rant

EDIT: "some of us believe" is so douchey. Don't you see how gay it is to even think it's proper to legislate people's bodies with your silly beliefs?
"Some of us" hope that someday someone has an incredibly retarded belief that they turn into law and force upon you. Just for the sake of Karma.
I hope this doesn't affect our as of yet unborn friendship...(<---what I did there, do you see?)

ok, /rant. for real this time.

i really think prolifers should spend more time at these fertility clinics because thats where embryos are being created & destroyed. people have invitro fertilization and sometimes implant MANY embryos just to have one baby. all those other fetuses die. i personally think to each their own but if you want to fight the fight, go after them - no one ever cares about those "babies". for some reason, they only care in the case of a woman who doesn't want a baby.she aborts 1 lump of cells (not even a embryo) but implanting 4 to get one baby is OK?

abortions usually happen within the first few weeks before the cells have become anything! before they have any characteristics of a human. they do't have a spine or brain, they don't have a head. they have nothing, just cells.

JohnnyGreenfingers said:

No, sir. With all due respect, this is where "some of us" think they have the right to place their fucking OPINIONS or beliefs on my body.
There are living organisms in my shit too, who I'm quite sure do not appreciate being flushed to their death. But it's mine, it's in my body, and like anything else of mine that your self righteous delusion might cause you to think you have a say over, I will do with it whatever the fuck I choose, whenever the fuck I choose to.
Since, as of today, we're still in a "free country" were wackjobs can't tell me not to have an abortion, that's just the fucking way it is, until you get enough freaks with votes to do something about it. And if that ever did happen, I promise that on our way to Canada, my kind would revolt and burn you and your kind to the ground. To the fucking ground, sir.

That being said, I totally respect your right to an opinion, even if it is full to the point of overflowing with douchebaggery.
I'm glad we had this discussion. I know you won't change your mind, but I do take comfort in the knowledge that in the eyes of the law, I can go have twelve abortions tomorrow if I have the cash to pay for them, and all you can do about it is piss and whine on teh intarwebz.
/rant

EDIT: "some of us believe" is so douchey. Don't you see how gay it is to even think it's proper to legislate people's bodies with your silly beliefs?
"Some of us" hope that someday someone has an incredibly retarded belief that they turn into law and force upon you. Just for the sake of Karma.
I hope this doesn't affect our as of yet unborn friendship...(<---what I did there, do you see?)

ok, /rant. for real this time.

Click to expand...

I give you a pretty reasonable and rational position and you respond with insults. Are you saying it is unreasonable to call an unborn child a human? You are free to disagree, but surely you can't find it all that unreasonable.

I cannot agree with "reasonable and rational position", I'm sorry. Because your position is that your BELIEF, which is very different from many other beliefs on the same subject, gives you the right to tell me what to do with my own body.

In my opinion, yes it is unreasonable to call an unborn fetus a human. Are you the only person who believes otherwise? Hell no. This changes nothing, that you are part of a group that shares this delusion.

We could parse words all night long on what is or isn't a human. At conception? No, it isn't a human being. If it fell out of me on accident at 2 weeks or 8 weeks, could it survive? Then no, it's not a person yet. I don't agree with late term abortions, once it is clearly a human being inside of you that could live on it's own if removed from you, but that isn't the point. The point is, it's none of your business unless YOU personally become pregnant. When I am, it's my business.

medicalmaryjane said:

i really think prolifers should spend more time at these fertility clinics because thats where embryos are being created & destroyed. people have invitro fertilization and sometimes implant MANY embryos just to have one baby. all those other fetuses die. i personally think to each their own but if you want to fight the fight, go after them - no one ever cares about those "babies". for some reason, they only care in the case of a woman who doesn't want a baby.she aborts 1 lump of cells (not even a embryo) but implanting 4 to get one baby is OK?

Click to expand...

I think that it all boils down to "some people" are just wired to think they have a right to think for all of us. Which is pretty slimy to me.
Trust me, I have some beliefs that I KNOW are redonkulous but I believe them anyway. I would never think it was correct to force you by law to comply with them.

Ohh goodness. I'm just going to throw this out there, for what it's worth. I got high and asked a ridiculous question (ever done that? Just a rhetorical question you would never actually put into action?) and I really didn't expect anyone to take it so seriously. Where are you guys from? You may need some norcal weed. I will share my norcal weed. Not the stretchy shit i'm growing, either, (lol), even better than that!

Alright! So the majority votes no on sterilization, thank you so much for everyone who played along. Happy toking.

Everything is good, I just have a huge peeve (ya think?) with organized control to that extreme. I'm a freedom loving guy =)
If they couldn't even pass an anti abortion law in Mississippi, the most racist, backwards, misogynistic state in this country by far, I don't think we have to worry about it anytime soon.
That's a fresh fail too. =)
Anyway, thanks for the interesting topic. Next time let's talk about something nicer, like getting Eskimo-drunk and clubbing some little baby harp seals. =)

OK...I have to know...how does one get eskimo-drunk?

You need some whiskey, some fur and some stink flipper. You wrap up in the fur, because you're going to pass out in the snow and turn into a popsicle if you don't, then you take a shot of the whiskey, down a bite of stink flipper, then chase it down with more whiskey. Lather rinse and repeat until you black out.

I forgot to answer you up there, I'm from MI.

Why does everyone think the earth is running out of resources? People are dying and starving, but that will happen no matter what. You will ALWAYS have a distribution of wealth and resources. If there were only a million people on the planet there would still be villages starving to death and not being able to fend off predators or disease. It will happen, it's completely natural. It happens to humans and every other species that has ever existed.

So what exactly leads you to believe we are exhausting the earths resources? I need specific examples with specific time lines.

Also how did your friend have her period for 5 months after being pregnant? I call bullshit on that. That's not how periods or pregnancy work.

And no, sterilizing children is wrong.

JohnnyGreenfingers said:

I don't think any person or law should be able to tell any person what they can do with their own body. It's mine, I was born with it and not you, so if you don't like what I do to it, please gofuckself immed, pretty much.
If I were a female and I somehow lost my mind and decided to screw the entire world bareback, and I then did not want the pregnancies that resulted, I would respect your right to not like me for aborting, but it would be my burden to live with (or ignore or however people deal with things) and zero of your business.
To me, the bottom line is this. Some things are just nobody's business or decision but your own, and this is clearly one of those things.
If some asshole brought their gods into my decision while judging me, they had better hope they have a way to prove it's existence (like bring him/her/it over for dinner) or I would just piss all over that with extreme malice. Again, figuratively.

To whom it may concern: Yes, the wording of this post is harsh. On purpose.
.

Click to expand...

What if I want to murder my neighbor? Is that nobodies business but my own? What if I am a siamese twin? It's MY body my bro is attached to, I can do what I like with it, and if I want to cut my bro off then its MY decision. Never mind that he will die without my heart.

At some point the mass of cells in the uterus becomes a human and deserves all natural rights that humans get. I don't know exactly when it goes from a lump of YOUR cells to a human being that deserves to not be murdered, but that is the main problem I have with the "my body" argument. It's IN MY body, but it is not MY body; it is a completely different human that is not me.

No, individual human beings have the right to control every aspect of their lives, including extending their genetic line into the future. What will that future bring? Noone knows, maybe we expand to Mars. Yeah I said it Bitches, Red Rocks YEAH YEAH!. I would rather my children fight out the fight of survival against 20B people and the resource challenges that will bring to this poor planet. The alternative is your genetic line ends, that took hundreds of thousands of years to get to you, and your child, etc.

I think sometimes about how crazy it is that our ancestors survived all of the brutal nature of humanity for 10,000s of years and here we are. That's what humans are great at, conquering, killing, enslaving, adapting and surviving.

guy incognito said:

Why does everyone think the earth is running out of resources? People are dying and starving, but that will happen no matter what. You will ALWAYS have a distribution of wealth and resources. If there were only a million people on the planet there would still be villages starving to death and not being able to fend off predators or disease. It will happen, it's completely natural. It happens to humans and every other species that has ever existed.

So what exactly leads you to believe we are exhausting the earths resources? I need specific examples with specific time lines.

Also how did your friend have her period for 5 months after being pregnant? I call bullshit on that. That's not how periods or pregnancy work.

And no, sterilizing children is wrong.

Click to expand...

Two resources that come to mind right off the bat are oil and paleowater.
Some other key resources that are running out in a practical sense are copper and silver. It's not so much about whether or not all the deposits of a given mineral are wiped out, but the ones we can afford to mine and refine.

Our current lifestyle is based on plenty of water, cheap fossil energy, and certain metals. Those are indeed running out. We will have two choices:
1a) Find new reserves (with ways to refine'm) of the bottleneck resources.
1b) Find effective alternatives, e.g. nonfossil energy or efficient capture and transport of rainwater.

2) Reduce the overall demand for the bottleneck resources - either per capita (which would mean a lifestyle collapse leading to massive retrenchment in manufacturing capacity and sophistication) or the number of capita. My money is on the last ... somehow, eventually ... and I don't imagine it'll be pretty, or regionally contained. cn

We still have plenty of oil. Everyone says we are running out, and we will eventually, but not in our life times. We have plenty of time to solve the problem.

And why do we need paleowater? Water falls from the sky all the time. I have never spent significant amounts of time concerned with water. I live in michigan though, surrounded by the largest source of fresh water on earth, so maybe i'm biased on this issue. Now if you'll excuse me I need to go turn some faucets on for awhile.