giving defoliation during flower a try

TerpCylia

TerpCylia

Member
AlphaPhase said:
Oh, here's another bit of SCIENCE for ya. Pretty easy to read, even for newbs.
View attachment 3561823

And a complete defoliation and lollipop. Not sure what the science is here but whatever. This one's just to piss you off for trolling and hurt your feelings that people grow better plants with no leaves than you do with all your leaves.
View attachment 3561824


Gnite trolly troll ;)
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I was waiting for someone to post this info.... The larger leaves do use more energy keeping themselves alive than they add to the grow of buds... its plain to see that when you remove leaves covering lower buds you get better quality... hence more efficient use of energy... However I would like to see an analytical study on the weight of THC on the whole plant with and with out defoliation since I am a hash maker at heart, but I would guess that it is still more efficient to defoliate. Strain dependent of corse but I find it necessary in all cases to maximize direct contact of light with as many bud sites as possible. I can't see why anyone who has tried it wouldn't see the benefit.
 
Krippled

Krippled

Well-Known Member
Hi all!! I see this thread is causing some to really get heated. Well I am not here for that, just why I do defoliate to a degree. Timing is key... If I had not cut a few fans off I would not have 9 different lower limbs competing for the top.. You can see that limbs 16" down from top are actually tallest.....20151213_034425.jpg 20151213_034440.jpg
 
ForRealz

ForRealz

Well-Known Member
AlphaPhase said:
So I tested the lux without any poly on the wall. The meter is pegged (past the numbers) at the top of the canopy, around 45k lux. Under the canopy it was about 1k lux. That's a 44000 difference in light.

With white poly on the left wall, I measured the plant closest to the poly, to get the highest reading I could from the poly reflecting whatever it could.. . It was 1k lux. No difference. Not that I added poly around the whole building and tested, but none the less, I already know the results would be the same.

1k lux isn't enough for a seedling to grow.

These already have grown about a foot in a week. There not even close to done growing before buds set in. Lollipop. Poly doesn't matter.

View attachment 3556111 View attachment 3556112 View attachment 3556113 View attachment 3556114
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Hey brother, first let me say thank you for your posts, I appreciate your contributions. Also, I think that you are not off topic as Defoliation and Lollipopping are both related by the thread of Light Penetration...
Now, not to compare swords, but I think you are measuring in Lumens and I just wanted to give my $ .02.
"The lux (symbol: lx) is the SI unit of illuminance and luminous emittance, measuring luminous flux per unit area.[1] It is equal to one lumen per square metre...Luminous flux is adjusted to reflect the varying sensitivity of the human eye to different wavelengths of light." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lux
 
ForRealz

ForRealz

Well-Known Member
AlphaPhase said:
Oh, here's another bit of SCIENCE for ya. Pretty easy to read, even for newbs.
View attachment 3561823

And a complete defoliation and lollipop. Not sure what the science is here but whatever. This one's just to piss you off for trolling and hurt your feelings that people grow better plants with no leaves than you do with all your leaves.
View attachment 3561824


Gnite trolly troll ;)
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Hey brotha, am I reading this chart incorrectly, or does it show that even at day 60 there is a Positive Net Photosynthesis Rate?
 
AlphaPhase

AlphaPhase

Well-Known Member
ForRealz said:
Hey brother, first let me say thank you for your posts, I appreciate your contributions. Also, I think that you are not off topic as Defoliation and Lollipopping are both related by the thread of Light Penetration...
Now, not to compare swords, but I think you are measuring in Lumens and I just wanted to give my $ .02.
"The lux (symbol: lx) is the SI unit of illuminance and luminous emittance, measuring luminous flux per unit area.[1] It is equal to one lumen per square metre...Luminous flux is adjusted to reflect the varying sensitivity of the human eye to different wavelengths of light." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lux
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Very true. I prefer using lux over par however. Unless I planned on changing to led and modifying the spectrum to get optimal par, but using the same bulb as I have the past 10 or 15 years, the par will not change since it's the same spectrum and par in a way relates to a known spectrum lux, as lux increases so does par, so it's easy for me to tell if they are getting enough light even though it's not all usable light for the plant, that doesn't make a difference in my case
 
AlphaPhase

AlphaPhase

Well-Known Member
ForRealz said:
Hey brotha, am I reading this chart incorrectly, or does it show that even at day 60 there is a Positive Net Photosynthesis Rate?
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At 60 days (for cotton leaves) is just about the time frame when respiration will out weigh photosynthesis rate. It may be still photosynthsizing, but not very productive doe the over all plant. I veg for 30 days and about 20 days into flower is when Shaded leaves start to slow way down on doing their job, pretty much the same time frame as cotton leaves.
 
TerpCylia

TerpCylia

Member
ForRealz said:
Hey brotha, am I reading this chart incorrectly, or does it show that even at day 60 there is a Positive Net Photosynthesis Rate?
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I believe there is still a net Positive Net Photosynthesis however it is not as efficient as the lower/newer leaves it is covering. My theory is that when you defoliate and make your bud sites get more direct contact to the light you are helping the plant allocate the photosynthesis closer to where you want the growth. Yes all leaves will continue to transfer energy to necessary places but we are after efficiency not just basic growth.
 
AlphaPhase

AlphaPhase

Well-Known Member
TerpCylia said:
I believe there is still a net Positive Net Photosynthesis however it is not as efficient as the lower/newer leaves it is covering. My theory is that when you defoliate and make your bud sites get more direct contact to the light you are helping the plant allocate the photosynthesis closer to where you want the growth. Yes all leaves will continue to transfer energy to necessary places but we are after efficiency not just basic growth.
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Buds getting direct light is definitely good, probably the best, but just remember that the smaller leaves aren't photosynthsizing any where near as much as larger leaves. I'm almost certain that smaller leaves use more carbs rather than making them, until they reach a certain size and are able to collect more light. You always want as many big leaves as possible, especially towards the top of the plant that receives the most light. Taking a couple big leaves off isn't that big of a deal, but imo isn't optimal. Check out the science of source and sinks. That will explain how much and when a leaf is working efficiently. You'll need the big leaves to help grow the small leaves to an extent, or growth will be very slow
 
AlphaPhase

AlphaPhase

Well-Known Member
The easiest and quickest way I find to get all the lower limbs to become tops is after the clone roots decently and just starts vertical growth, and has about 5-7 nodes, I top them once, then immediately supercrop the same day. This is about a 10 day old clone, once it gets a little bigger I'll super crop and top the highest parts. After that, all the branches will be the same height and I'll top each top one more time, then flower. They'll have about 10-16 tops at the same level and it doesn't stunt the plant at all. If you notice, the lowest branch is already working on growing to the top

rps20151213_171706.jpg
 
ForRealz

ForRealz

Well-Known Member
AlphaPhase said:
At 60 days (for cotton leaves) is just about the time frame when respiration will out weigh photosynthesis rate. It may be still photosynthsizing, but not very productive doe the over all plant. I veg for 30 days and about 20 days into flower is when Shaded leaves start to slow way down on doing their job, pretty much the same time frame as cotton leaves.
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TerpCylia said:
I believe there is still a net Positive Net Photosynthesis however it is not as efficient as the lower/newer leaves it is covering. My theory is that when you defoliate and make your bud sites get more direct contact to the light you are helping the plant allocate the photosynthesis closer to where you want the growth. Yes all leaves will continue to transfer energy to necessary places but we are after efficiency not just basic growth.
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Thank you. After seeing some of the debate b/w Alpha and Homebrew over Needs of Reflective Material and Value of Lollipopping and Others denouncing/espousing Defoliation...I decided to look into these areas and see who was Correct...and from what Ive gathered it seems there are arguments to support that: Everyone Is Correct UNDER CERTAIN APPLICATIONS!
Reflective material: Alpha appears to be correct that warehouses do not enclose 4×4 or 4x8 areas with reflective materials BUT that is because the light that passes beyond immediate plants ultimately bathes adjacent plants And if you look at Gavita, they recommend using reflective materials near walls (they don't sell reflective material to my knowledge) so seems Homebrew also correct in that application.
Lollipopping: if you look at Vivicia Sativa (annual flowering plant) greenhouse study (Koptur, et. al, 1996) after too many young growths removed there is decline in fruiting, also study on "Cakile edentula var. lucustris (sea rocket) and Corispermum hyssopifolium (bugseed) (two annual flowering plants) grow on the sandy shores of the Great Lakes. Greenhouse experiments showed that both species were able to compensate for low to moderate levels of defoliation. However, high levels near the time of anthesis (the period during which a flower is fully open and functional. It may also refer to the onset of flowering) reduced the growth and reproductive output of both species. " (Gerwing, et. al, 1992). So...Lollipopping may be Correct application indoors where light penetration is at minimum (perhaps keep to minimum and do just prior to/early in flowering) But maybe Not Appropriate (except if necessary for adequate airflow) Outdoors or Greenhouse (where light penetration should be at max And you can maximize Net Photosynthesis Rate efficiency of newer growth).
Defoliation: Indoors, where light source is often fixed and quality of light inferior to Outdoors, select Defoliation of older, upper canopy leaves may help younger, more photosynthesis efficient growth to obtain light that would otherwise be blocked / not completely utilized But Outdoors it may be that, with superior lighting and mobile light source, Defoliation is an unnecessary risk (except if necessary to increase airflow). To further buttress these statements, here is another study (perennial flowering plant grown like annual) : "applying leaf removal...to lima bean...damage reduced above- and belowground biomass production in general...Similarly, the number of fruits and seeds was significantly reduced." (Blue, et. al, 2015).
 
AlphaPhase

AlphaPhase

Well-Known Member
Thank you for the studies and information, appreciate it! As you say, there's a time and place for everything. About the reflective walls, eventually I'll be expanding and running the whole room with lights, so it's just not for me since it won't affect my yield right now or after I upgrade, but it does look cleaner I must admit, but it would take time. I was thinking about adding some more to protect my walls from getting covered in reason though, but I figure when the time comes I can just move the plants a little further from the wall. I believe all lighting companies recommend reflective walls, but I think it's more geared towards a smaller room grow, which would help a bit.
 
TerpCylia

TerpCylia

Member
AlphaPhase said:
Thank you for the studies and information, appreciate it! As you say, there's a time and place for everything. About the reflective walls, eventually I'll be expanding and running the whole room with lights, so it's just not for me since it won't affect my yield right now or after I upgrade, but it does look cleaner I must admit, but it would take time. I was thinking about adding some more to protect my walls from getting covered in reason though, but I figure when the time comes I can just move the plants a little further from the wall. I believe all lighting companies recommend reflective walls, but I think it's more geared towards a smaller room grow, which would help a bit.
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The higher the perimeter to interior ratio the more necessary it is to use reflective materials.... If you have 2 lights then it is absolutely beneficial, but if you have a square room that is 10 rows by 10 rows it is a lot less necessary due to the very low percentage of light lost to the perimeter. However if you take those same 100 lights and string them out in 1 or 2 rows your perimeter is way bigger than the 10x10 thus much more necessary to use reflective materials.
 
AlphaPhase

AlphaPhase

Well-Known Member
TerpCylia said:
The higher the perimeter to interior ratio the more necessary it is to use reflective materials.... If you have 2 lights then it is absolutely beneficial, but if you have a square room that is 10 rows by 10 rows it is a lot less necessary due to the very low percentage of light lost to the perimeter. However if you take those same 100 lights and string them out in 1 or 2 rows your perimeter is way bigger than the 10x10 thus much more necessary to use reflective materials.
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Yes, totally agree. Grow tents and small areas similar to grow tents shape benefit most from the reflection, though I'm not sure what % of a yield increase there is, I'm sure a couple % at least.
 
Alpha Grower

Alpha Grower

Member
AlphaPhase said:
Yes, totally agree. Grow tents and small areas similar to grow tents shape benefit most from the reflection, though I'm not sure what % of a yield increase there is, I'm sure a couple % at least.
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I agree with you now this have sens to me, this techniques like "deleafing, Lolipoping" are suitable for small grow ops, also Mylar is. Obviously a big grow op like green-houses or very big rooms with high ceilings Mylar isn't gonna make a lot of difference in the final results or on the light distribution, here we need to talk about powerful light sources, big containers, and of course proper and accepted "training and prunning" techniques.

Cutting lower branches not for energy reasons but for hygiene and confort, to avoid big branches to break, to avoid pests through a better chek out of inner parts of plants, etc.

Scrogging the same, is suitable for small grow ops and lower ceilings and few plants were plant height control is a key element of that system.

For other systems with big plants (the way nature intended this plants to be) I don't even mind of using these methods.
 
Alpha Grower

Alpha Grower

Member
Today wasn't a good day, my 1 year old dog bite the leaves of several plants and chew many branches, what a fucking mess.

1 plant is totally death and various alive.

I told ya my dog know how to fucking deleafing and lolipoping things, now I have here the perfect situation to do a little experiment, the experiment is how much stress those Cannabis plants can manage and still giving decent yields.

I' try to borrow one camera to make pics of my plants.

The plants alive are : Mohan Ram (White Widow x Black Domina), Durga Mata (Shiva x Shiva), and some Skunks.
 
TerpCylia

TerpCylia

Member
Here's a paper that shows the info I learned in plant physiology...

upload_2015-12-15_16-47-59.png

Study on grape leaves:
http://www.vitis-vea.de/admin/volltext/e001212.pdf

All of this data is understably on a plant that is not the one we are growing however it is closely related and can grow at a similar rate.

A few speculations: 1. After a certain time leaves lose their efficiency and seem to produce less chlorophyll yet continue to continue to grow thus diluting the concentration... 2. The light that is not used by the chlorophyll does pass through however the higher concentrations of lipids and other structural materials(everything that is not chlorophyll) relative to chlorophyll block photons and only let a percentage through, 3. After the 30 day mark it seems that the Net Photosynthesis starts to drop.. after the 50 day mark it drops significantly, at this point by the time we get to the 70 day mark our biggest leaves are becoming less efficient than our 15-20day leaves if we are in a mid sized plant grow(vegging to 2-3ft then flip) we vegged for about 3-5 weeks depending on strain putting us at the 30-40 day mark when flipping. 4. I would assume that when defoliation occurs the younger leaves are encouraged to catch up and boost their rate of photosynthesis to an extent. 5. When removing the larger leaves while still maintaining enough canopy to catch all the photons available(or just below enough) however we are keeping the leaves which are closer to where we want the energy/production directed. I have been wanting to get a light meter for lots of reasons and in this scenario I would utilize it to measure the amount of light hitting the floor before defoliation and see how much I could do before a significant change happened.

Higher Times article:
http://www.hightimes.com/read/30-more-yield-indoor-pot-grow-advice

The High Times by Eric Biksa talks about a 30% increase on yield when implementing the defoliation strategy at 4th week into bloom which is way further into bloom than I would initially be comfortable attempting this.

Here are some pics of Purple alien OG that I did not defoliate at first and then did take leaves off as I noticed it was just over grown and you couldn't even find the stem without digging through layers on layer of leaves. The buds at the bottom were just pathetic at best. The other pic is of the same cut of PAOG that I have now stripped the bottom sucker off and most of the larger leaves.



In my next crop I'm going to color code my fan leaves by the week they emerge so I can get a visual correlation between the size and age. At 50 days I will probably defoliate anything that is 35-50 days and tuck the rest on one group and then everything from 50-21 days old on another group. I will take pictures and post for you all who are interested.
 

Attachments

warren kirk

warren kirk

Active Member
jacksthc said:
banter started off between me and uncle ben because he was dead against defoliation threads and would do everything he could to get them closed down.
I do get things wrong but i have been growing for a long time so i know all the basics when it comes to growing in soil under hps

never grown weed outside, but do grow lots of veg every year in my green house and only done a couple of hydro grows

most my experience has been on growing short well trainned plants and flowered them off under a 600w hps, don't pretend to know more than i do, no point this site will rip you apart, so i stick to what I know
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That's it in a nut shell, stck to what u know!
 
jacksthc

jacksthc

Well-Known Member
TerpCylia said:
Here's a paper that shows the info I learned in plant physiology...

View attachment 3565240

Study on grape leaves:
http://www.vitis-vea.de/admin/volltext/e001212.pdf

All of this data is understably on a plant that is not the one we are growing however it is closely related and can grow at a similar rate.

A few speculations: 1. After a certain time leaves lose their efficiency and seem to produce less chlorophyll yet continue to continue to grow thus diluting the concentration... 2. The light that is not used by the chlorophyll does pass through however the higher concentrations of lipids and other structural materials(everything that is not chlorophyll) relative to chlorophyll block photons and only let a percentage through, 3. After the 30 day mark it seems that the Net Photosynthesis starts to drop.. after the 50 day mark it drops significantly, at this point by the time we get to the 70 day mark our biggest leaves are becoming less efficient than our 15-20day leaves if we are in a mid sized plant grow(vegging to 2-3ft then flip) we vegged for about 3-5 weeks depending on strain putting us at the 30-40 day mark when flipping. 4. I would assume that when defoliation occurs the younger leaves are encouraged to catch up and boost their rate of photosynthesis to an extent. 5. When removing the larger leaves while still maintaining enough canopy to catch all the photons available(or just below enough) however we are keeping the leaves which are closer to where we want the energy/production directed. I have been wanting to get a light meter for lots of reasons and in this scenario I would utilize it to measure the amount of light hitting the floor before defoliation and see how much I could do before a significant change happened.

Higher Times article:
http://www.hightimes.com/read/30-more-yield-indoor-pot-grow-advice

The High Times by Eric Biksa talks about a 30% increase on yield when implementing the defoliation strategy at 4th week into bloom which is way further into bloom than I would initially be comfortable attempting this.

Here are some pics of Purple alien OG that I did not defoliate at first and then did take leaves off as I noticed it was just over grown and you couldn't even find the stem without digging through layers on layer of leaves. The buds at the bottom were just pathetic at best. The other pic is of the same cut of PAOG that I have now stripped the bottom sucker off and most of the larger leaves.



In my next crop I'm going to color code my fan leaves by the week they emerge so I can get a visual correlation between the size and age. At 50 days I will probably defoliate anything that is 35-50 days and tuck the rest on one group and then everything from 50-21 days old on another group. I will take pictures and post for you all who are interested.
Click to expand...
this is what I have found with my plants over the last few years
 
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