Is hydroponics better for the environment? I think it is.

AlphaPhase

AlphaPhase

Well-Known Member
That's what I've been hearing about organic hydro as well, there's still some things I need to learn, especially since I've never run a beneficial res and have always run sterile. There's definitely a few things I'll have to change in my growing style once I try organic hydro. I've heard that it can clog pumps and airstones much easier as well. I was thinking of running bio-buckets but there's not a lot of info i can find about it, and even organic hydro in general has limited info. It'll be a learning curve for sure
 
C

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
It's not that "synthetics" works better in hydro, it's that nitrate salts works better.

Synthetic urea is a no-go for hydroponics. That's for feeding bacteria. It's the main ingredient in Jacks classic, miracle grow, peters, shultz, and basically every lawn and potting mix formula.

Organic hydro... ugh..
 
st0wandgrow

st0wandgrow

Well-Known Member
st0wandgrow said:
Who said anything about livestock, or any animal waste/bi products? I don't use any. Plant and mineral based inputs only (unless you consider worm castings and animal bi product).

I suppose as long as humans insist on eating meat it's not a bad practice to use the bi products though
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In the spirit of full disclosure, I lied. I do (or have) used crab shell meal, and oyster shell flour. I was thinking poop, bone meal, blood meal, etc and completely overlooked those. My bad
 
Tone5500

Tone5500

Well-Known Member
image.jpg
AlphaPhase said:
That's what I've been hearing about organic hydro as well, there's still some things I need to learn, especially since I've never run a beneficial res and have always run sterile. There's definitely a few things I'll have to change in my growing style once I try organic hydro. I've heard that it can clog pumps and airstones much easier as well. I was thinking of running bio-buckets but there's not a lot of info i can find about it, and even organic hydro in general has limited info. It'll be a learning curve for sure
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I've never had a problem running a natural organic rez . I think it's easier and less hassle no worrying about rez temps 81 degrees right now, I haven't phed this water grow yet no ill side effects . Sorry off topic . Make the jump lolimage.jpgimage.jpg image.jpg
 
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st0wandgrow

st0wandgrow

Well-Known Member
AlphaPhase said:
That's what I've been hearing about organic hydro as well, there's still some things I need to learn, especially since I've never run a beneficial res and have always run sterile. There's definitely a few things I'll have to change in my growing style once I try organic hydro. I've heard that it can clog pumps and airstones much easier as well. I was thinking of running bio-buckets but there's not a lot of info i can find about it, and even organic hydro in general has limited info. It'll be a learning curve for sure
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I personally don't see the point in that. We all know that the plant doesn't care if the nutrients are of an organic or synthetic origin. The whole point/benefit to organics is to utilize that symbiosis between the plant and the microbes. There is a reliance upon a granular, organic medium to facilitate this. I don't see how that's accomplished in an aquatic (and inert) medium??

My hunch is that organic hydro leans on highly soluble organic fertilizers like blood meal, and possibly enzymatically processed plant based nutrients (alfalfa meal, kelp meal, etc). If this is the case, I would stick with the salts.
 
AlphaPhase

AlphaPhase

Well-Known Member
Right on guys, that's pretty much the same conclusion I've come to and the reason I haven't tried it.. But I do like trying to growing methods for fun. I know organics and hydro kind of defeat the purpose but at the same time if I do grow a plant or two in that style, I'd be able to say I have and have the knowledge. It's probablynot ssomething I'd do with my main crop, but I like to tinker around with side projects.
 
AlphaPhase

AlphaPhase

Well-Known Member
Looks great man! That's one reason I wanted to try it, keeping res temps in check is a PITA in the summers here. That is one benefit that organics in hydro has over synthetics and a key component.

Tone5500 said:
I've never had a problem running a natural organic rez . I think it's easier and less hassle no worrying about rez temps , I haven't phed this water grow yet no ill side effects . Sorry off topic . Make the jump lolView attachment 3372869View attachment 3372870 View attachment 3372872
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Tone5500

Tone5500

Well-Known Member
st0wandgrow said:
I personally don't see the point in that. We all know that the plant doesn't care if the nutrients are of an organic or synthetic origin. The whole point/benefit to organics is to utilize that symbiosis between the plant and the microbes. There is a reliance upon a granular, organic medium to facilitate this. I don't see how that's accomplished in an aquatic (and inert) medium??

My hunch is that organic hydro leans on highly soluble organic fertilizers like blood meal, and possibly enzymatically processed plant based nutrients (alfalfa meal, kelp meal, etc). If this is the case, I would stick with the salts.
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Your second statement is spot on , I guess I'm just bais to what has worked really well for me but I would try sterile Rez have nothing against it at all
 
GrowTeam

GrowTeam

Well-Known Member
Great thread. Have a few questions floating around in my head.

1) Why does the organic farmer refer to "nutrients" as "nutrients". Yet refers to the exact same element as a "chemical" when its used by the "synthetic" grower. Nutrients like Nitrogen are chemical elements. Its a "chemical" either way. No matter where its sourced from. Humans don't create elements. Its natural. Made by stars via fusion.

2) Soil has a very high CEC rating. So it holds on to "nutrients". Lots of nutrients. When this is washed down the drain or just down the stream, is there no accumulation of chemical elements somewhere down the stream? When I grow without a medium, just a bucket and nutrient solution I can't exceed a certain ppm. However when I use a soilless mix with a higher cec, I can feed with a much higher ppm. And soil holds even more. So a pot of soil holds a lot more chemical elements. Why isn't this an issue if its washed down stream? The organic material the chemical elements are bound to will decompose but this just leaves the chemical elements. No?

3) Water. A chemical compound. If someone in a lab combines Hydrogen and oxygen to form water. Is this water seen as synthetic water?

4) Two humans. Male female. They are trying to have a baby. They can't. The doctor says, they can do IVF. The sperm and egg are combined in a lab in a laboratory dish. Would the organic farmer view the human as a synthetic human?
 
GrowTeam

GrowTeam

Well-Known Member
st0wandgrow said:
I personally don't see the point in that. We all know that the plant doesn't care if the nutrients are of an organic or synthetic origin. The whole point/benefit to organics is to utilize that symbiosis between the plant and the microbes. There is a reliance upon a granular, organic medium to facilitate this. I don't see how that's accomplished in an aquatic (and inert) medium??

My hunch is that organic hydro leans on highly soluble organic fertilizers like blood meal, and possibly enzymatically processed plant based nutrients (alfalfa meal, kelp meal, etc). If this is the case, I would stick with the salts.
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It makes sense. But then why is there no objection to using artificial lights, in plastic pots, in artificial rooms with artificial environments, that contain artificial amounts of c02. Ultimately outdoors, sun grown, in the earth, would be the most "organic" friendly method. Anything indoors is already a compromise isn't it?
 
Tone5500

Tone5500

Well-Known Member
GrowTeam said:
Great thread. Have a few questions floating around in my head.

1) Why does the organic farmer refer to "nutrients" as "nutrients". Yet refers to the exact same element as a "chemical" when its used by the "synthetic" grower. Nutrients like Nitrogen are chemical elements. Its a "chemical" either way. No matter where its sourced from. Humans don't create elements. Its natural. Made by stars via fusion.

2) Soil has a very high CEC rating. So it holds on to "nutrients". Lots of nutrients. When this is washed down the drain or just down the stream, is there no accumulation of chemical elements somewhere down the stream? When I grow without a medium, just a bucket and nutrient solution I can't exceed a certain ppm. However when I use a soilless mix with a higher cec, I can feed with a much higher ppm. And soil holds even more. So a pot of soil holds a lot more chemical elements. Why isn't this an issue if its washed down stream? The organic material the chemical elements are bound to will decompose but this just leaves the chemical elements. No?

3) Water. A chemical compound. If someone in a lab combines Hydrogen and oxygen to form water. Is this water seen as synthetic water?

4) Two humans. Male female. They are trying to have a baby. They can't. The doctor says, they can do IVF. The sperm and egg are combined in a lab in a laboratory dish. Would the organic farmer view the human as a synthetic human?
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Hydrogen plus the right amount of oxygen creates a big boom lol
 
st0wandgrow

st0wandgrow

Well-Known Member
AlphaPhase said:
Right on guys, that's pretty much the same conclusion I've come to and the reason I haven't tried it.. But I do like trying to growing methods for fun. I know organics and hydro kind of defeat the purpose but at the same time if I do grow a plant or two in that style, I'd be able to say I have and have the knowledge. It's probablynot ssomething I'd do with my main crop, but I like to tinker around with side projects.
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That would be fun to follow along with. If you decide to document it give me a holler.

I wall happily eat my words if it kicks ass. :lol:
 
C

churchhaze

Well-Known Member
Just keep in mind that if you use cal-mag+ with your "organic dwc", it's using calcium nitrate, which is what hydroponic formulas use as the main ingredient.

It's definitely cheating.

Anything that uses calcium nitrate is cheating if you're trying to show how well "organic dwc" works.
 
st0wandgrow

st0wandgrow

Well-Known Member
GrowTeam said:
1) Why does the organic farmer refer to "nutrients" as "nutrients". Yet refers to the exact same element as a "chemical" when its used by the "synthetic" grower. Nutrients like Nitrogen are chemical elements. Its a "chemical" either way. No matter where its sourced from. Humans don't create elements. Its natural. Made by stars via fusion.
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Not sure. I usually just refer to them as meals, and I don't pay much attention to NPK values.

GrowTeam said:
2) Soil has a very high CEC rating. So it holds on to "nutrients". Lots of nutrients. When this is washed down the drain or just down the stream, is there no accumulation of chemical elements somewhere down the stream? When I grow without a medium, just a bucket and nutrient solution I can't exceed a certain ppm. However when I use a soilless mix with a higher cec, I can feed with a much higher ppm. And soil holds even more. So a pot of soil holds a lot more chemical elements. Why isn't this an issue if its washed down stream? The organic material the chemical elements are bound to will decompose but this just leaves the chemical elements. No?
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You kinda made the case for organic farming in an effort to discredit it. Yes, a living organic soil has a very high CEC and does a great job of sequestering nutrients. For this reason it is superior to synthetics that are easily washed away. Farms typically aren't right on top of rivers or lakes so I'm not sure what you mean by soil being "washed down the stream"?

I re use the same soil over and over. In excess of a year. When I'm done with that soil I haul it out to the veggie garden. It doesn't go down the drain.

GrowTeam said:
3) Water. A chemical compound. If someone in a lab combines Hydrogen and oxygen to form water. Is this water seen as synthetic water?
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Not by me

GrowTeam said:
4) Two humans. Male female. They are trying to have a baby. They can't. The doctor says, they can do IVF. The sperm and egg are combined in a lab in a laboratory dish. Would the organic farmer view the human as a synthetic human?
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Yeah, that would be a human, but that's not a great analogy. You are starting with two organic objects, and assisting in the process of making something. Kinda like enzymatically processed alfalfa meal, or cold pressed sea kelp.
 
ounevinsmoke

ounevinsmoke

Well-Known Member
GrowTeam said:
It makes sense. But then why is there no objection to using artificial lights, in plastic pots, in artificial rooms with artificial environments, that contain artificial amounts of c02. Ultimately outdoors, sun grown, in the earth, would be the most "organic" friendly method. Anything indoors is already a compromise isn't it?
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yes, some people say indoor growing methods are not organic at all. It never stops. Its up to the grower to choose their own methods and feel comfortable they have chosen it for the right reasons. Will differ from person to person.
 
st0wandgrow

st0wandgrow

Well-Known Member
GrowTeam said:
It makes sense. But then why is there no objection to using artificial lights, in plastic pots, in artificial rooms with artificial environments, that contain artificial amounts of c02. Ultimately outdoors, sun grown, in the earth, would be the most "organic" friendly method. Anything indoors is already a compromise isn't it?
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I have no choice. If I want to grow marijuana I have to grow it indoors. I would love to utilize the sun. $600 electric bills isn't ideal.

I *do* have a choice in how I grow though, and I chose organics. It's a personal choice that I came to after trying other ways over the course of the last 10 years. I don't look down my nose at others for doing it differently. I'm happy to help people where I can if they ask, but I don't shove anything down anyone's throat. I don't like the condescending attitude that some organic purists have. I have been booted from organic sites for voicing my opinion on this very topic.
 
Gaberlunzie

Gaberlunzie

Well-Known Member
Speaking of aquaponics, let's be careful not to forget about organic pollution, like the kind that can result from fish feed and an over-accumulation of fish waste - including some nasty bacteria like e-coil and salmonella. Irresponsible farming is irresponsible farming no matter the method.

Nobody said that hydro is going to replace soil farming either. I've said from the beginning of this thread that both are going to be important moving forward. It's the members of the organic church who refuse to acknowledge the merits of hydroponics and the increasingly important role that it will play in the future for an increasing population as well as bringing food to regions of the world where traditional means of agriculture aren't an option. Soil will always be here, hydroponic technology is the future. I don't know why that fact has to be so polarizing.
 
Fogdog

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
Gaberlunzie said:
Speaking of aquaponics, let's be careful not to forget about organic pollution, like the kind that can result from fish feed and an over-accumulation of fish waste - including some nasty bacteria like e-coil and salmonella. Irresponsible farming is irresponsible farming no matter the method.

Nobody said that hydro is going to replace soil farming either. I've said from the beginning of this thread that both are going to be important moving forward. It's the members of the organic church who refuse to acknowledge the merits of hydroponics and the increasingly important role that it will play in the future for an increasing population as well as bringing food to regions of the world where traditional means of agriculture aren't an option. Soil will always be here, hydroponic technology is the future. I don't know why that fact has to be so polarizing.
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Not a member of any church I am. To me, a safe, reliable and sustainable food supply should be more important than the method. Hydroponic veggies, are already in the store and might be the best choice if you want a winter tomato. You might have missed an earlier part of this thread, IDK. I went over this with AP and kind of ended up with veggies being the only good application for hydro. Nuts, fruits, grains, beans, are possible but would it be practical? Hydro grown fruit and nut trees, really? A hydro field of wheat, millet rye or rice? If it's just hydro grown veggies then we aren't talking about the major share of what needs to be produced.
 
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