kk42 outdoor log 2012

kushking42

kushking42

Well-Known Member
more good stuff on why using dolomite lime isnt necessary:

Okay - the first goals of wanting Calcium & Magnesium are good we'll stipulate. Whether or not you need a mineral amendment to achieve that will be put aside.

Dolomite Lime is used in 'the real world' when a complete soil analysis has been done and now you have a complete overview of the element levels, CeC, etc. and it's been established that lower levels exist for the long term on the Magnesium percentage. Even then, DL is applied maybe once every 4 or 5 years. The Magnesium in DL arrives as Magnesium Carbonate (MgCO3) but it's a bit more complicated than that.

The reason that it is 'slow acting' is the molecular structure and if you were to hit even WikiPedia and looked at the molecular formula you can easily understand why this material is as slow acting as it is.

If in fact you need a Magnesium jolt then you'd be far better off using a mined mineral compound like Epsom Salts (Magnesium Sulfate) or Sul-Po-Mag (Sulphur, Potassium & Magnesium). The Magnesium in Epsom Salts is in its elemental form like Sul-Po-Mag.

The main straight liming agents, Limestone, Calcite (aka Agricultural Lime), Oyster shell powder and Crab meal are sources for Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3). All are pure Calcium Carbonate with the exception of Limestone which can have a Mg level between 2 - 3% depending on the specific mine, country of origin, etc.

When looking at the numbers on a Calcium Carbonate source you have to multiply the CaCO3 percentage by 0.375% and now you will have the elemental Calcium (Ca++) numbers.

Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) is the preferred 'liming' agent in the PNW due to the acidic soils we deal with (the west side). That has to do with the adulteration of the clay platelets which no longer carry a pure negative charge (-) on the edges which bind along its edge with the center of adjacent clay particles and now you have clay compaction. All the Rototilling isn't going to change that - ever.

So back to Dolomite Lime and why it's used in commercial potting soils - certainly not used by professional nurseries other than for specific growing schedules like 3 - 5 years in containers. Even then, DL is part of a 'liming mix' that will include Gypsum (Calcium & Sulphur), Limestone or one of the shells meals. Bottom line is the DL is the least expensive because Calcium Carbonate is widely used in animal & human supplements - next time you're in a store selling vitamins and supplements look at the label on the Calcium products - Calcium Carbonate.

Same for livestock and poultry. Calcium is a necessary part of their feed and DL isn't part of that. DL has several industrial, manufacturing, etc. uses - it's not the big deal in agriculture or horticulture like it is in the cannabis hobby gardening paradigm.

All of this assumes of course that the potting soil that you make is deficient in Calcium or Magnesium. It would be highly unlikely that given the compost and EWC you produce that you need additional Magnesium or Calcium. EWC are covered with a slime which is Calcium Carbonate from the worm's digestive tract.

Calcium is not this elusive element that Goober wants you to believe it is
 
kushking42

kushking42

Well-Known Member
but what about ph you say?

The success of the AeroGarden, the first plug-and-grow aeroponic kitchen appliance, is testament to the fact that ordinary people do not understand the concept of pH and don't want to deal with it in their growing situations. Make it so you can practice hydroponics without this chemistry barrier and they will come, apparently.

Frankly, the concept of pH also confuses soil gardeners. Heck, the definition of pH was inadvertently reversed in my book "Teaming With Microbes: A Gardener's Guide to the Soil Food Web." (Yes, some readers noticed; I received two "you made a mistake" notes. But that's not as many as I thought I'd receive.) Fortunately, the mistake was corrected in time for the second printing.

In any case, soil gardeners have been told certain plants require acidic conditions- for example, rhododendrons and azaleas- or else they won't grow. The solution advocated by most experienced gardeners is not dissimilar from what a hydroponics grower would do: adjust the pH with chemicals, such as agricultural lime, to make the soil more alkaline. To make alkaline soil more acid, we are told to add sulfur. Because they are chemical changes, these solutions work for a short time. But to me pH is a biological matter.

A bit of quick pH review is in order (if only to make amends for the mistake in my book). You may remember that pH is a measure of the acidity or alkalinity of a solution on a scale of 1 to 14; 1 being most acidic and 14 being most alkaline. A more technical description is that pH is the measurement of the concentration of hydrogen ions, H+. If you have lots of H+, the pH is low, or acidic. If you have few of them, the pH is high, or alkaline.

If you are adding fertilizers and using chemicals, you are stuck in the chemical realm. Organic gardeners, soil food webbies in particular, realize that pH has more to do with biology than it does with chemistry. That's because of the way plant roots take up nutrients. Root hair surfaces are covered with positive electrical hydrogen cations. Think of these charges as ping-pong balls. If soil particles are small enough, their surfaces are covered by these ping-pong ball charges, both positive (cation) charges and negative (anion) charges. These cations are not limited to hydrogen; they also include calcium, potassium, sodium, magnesium, iron, and ammonium. All are important plant nutrients.

When a root encounters a clay or organic particle, it can exchange one of its hydrogen cation for another positive one from the particle. It can choose from calcium, potassium, sodium, magnesium, iron, ammonium and hydrogen, as these are all cations carried by clay and silt and are all, as luck would have it, major plant nutrients.

This is known, incidentally, as cation exchange capacity, or CEC. Sand and silt have low CECs, because they comprised of particles that are too large to hold electrical charges. This is why humus and clay are needed to make soil good. They are extremely small particles and can carry cations.

So, back to pH. Every time a plant root exchanges a hydrogen ion for a nutrient ion, it increases the concentration of hydrogen ions in solution. Thus, the pH goes down and things should become more acidic.

Ah, but things usually balance out because the positive cations on the root surface also attract negative charges. Here, hydroxy ions (OH-) are the exchange ping-pong balls, and addition of hydroxy ions lowers the concentration of hydrogen ions in the solution, and pH goes up.

I know this still sounds like chemistry and not biology. However, each plant has an optimum pH requirement. What soil growers need to know (and hydroponics growers don't) is that the type of bacteria and fungi attracted to a plant's rhizosphere by the plant's exudates has a lot to do with setting this optimal pH. Bacteria produce a slim that raises the pH, and fungi produce acids that lower the pH. Since the plant is in control of the biology it attracts, in a natural system, it is the plant that determines the pH, and not some chemistry teacher.

So, while you may forget the chemistry of pH, at least remember there is a biological side. Do no harm to it, and you shouldn't have to worry much about pH when you grow plants in soil. Moreover, the nutrient exchanges that occur above also have a lot to do with what kind of bacteria and fungi are attracted to the root zone as some like higher pH and others lower pH.
 
nugbuckets

nugbuckets

Well-Known Member
kk, are both exerpts from Lowenfels book?....both really great.........so as far as PH is concerned, iyo could a grower alter his soil medium PH (mid-grow) using just bacteria and fungi?
 
kushking42

kushking42

Well-Known Member
nugbuckets said:
kk, are both exerpts from Lowenfels book?....both really great.........so as far as PH is concerned, iyo could a grower alter his soil medium PH (mid-grow) using just bacteria and fungi?
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i think the main thing is the actual organic matter which provides those good guys. so an ewc/compost mulch with the addition of teas should do it.. the scholarly article is from a professor from texas. the other two posts are just from some real smart people on the organic soil forum @icmag

edit: ok i see the second one regarding ph seems to be from teaming with microbes author. first post about dolomite is original content from poster @ ic
 
kushking42

kushking42

Well-Known Member
Nugs do u have the Lowenfel book?

Edit: Ha I guess its just the Revised Edition of Teaming with Microbes. which im holding in my hand!!
 
nugbuckets

nugbuckets

Well-Known Member
kushking42 said:
Nugs do u have the Lowenfel book?

Edit: Ha I guess its just the Revised Edition of Teaming with Microbes. which im holding in my hand!!
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ah, got it....i am working on the Dr. Pettit article...need some more time, and when not quite so high...........lowenfel's book has been on my to get list, but now after reading a quality, insightful exerpt, i may have to get it real soon, seems like some valuable info.
 
kushking42

kushking42

Well-Known Member
getting ready to brew tea. homemade pvc rod diffuser. diffuser goes in compost tea bag. thats a pond diffuser on the ground i bought to put on the bottom of the barrel but the dame thing floats even full of water. so i havent figured out how to keep it on the bottom with out screwing it to the bottom of the barrel. any ideas anyone?

took these shots of the under carriage for Nugs:

001.jpg002.jpg003.jpg004.jpg005.jpg006.jpg007.jpg008.jpg010 - Copy.jpg
 
nugbuckets

nugbuckets

Well-Known Member
looks killer bro.....plants look soo incredibly healthy!........i have pulled a few yellow leaves out of my understory already....in the midst of fixing that with some teas of my own.......can you let us in on what you plan to use for you bac/fungi?.......i am needing to upgrade my tea brewing station, and like the looks of yours....i think the only way to get the pond diffuser down there is with bolts and silicone........so question.....looks like one pump is going to a manifold spliter that goes?.......and the other on the pvc?.....could you give me the breakdown...sure looks like you are getting a shit ton of agitation......i am still doing 5 gal. pail/air stones right now, and it is becoming woefully inadequite....but i am brewing up some pretty bad ass shit!.......and now my comfrey is ready to powderize in the morn....
 
nugbuckets

nugbuckets

Well-Known Member
so far my tea is

homemade EWC
Guano N and P (N for now)
comfrey powder
kelp powder
sucanat
great white
usually have good foam and great smell in about 18/24 hours

would like to hear your critique
 
kushking42

kushking42

Well-Known Member
nugbuckets said:
looks killer bro.....plants look soo incredibly healthy!........i have pulled a few yellow leaves out of my understory already....in the midst of fixing that with some teas of my own.......can you let us in on what you plan to use for you bac/fungi? combination of forrest humus, ewc, and homemade compost i follow the recipe found here:http://www.microbeorganics.com/.......i am needing to upgrade my tea brewing station, and like the looks of yours....i think the only way to get the pond diffuser down there is with bolts and silicone........so question.....looks like one pump is going to a manifold spliter that goes? to several airstones on the bottom.......and the other on the pvc? yes.....could you give me the breakdown...sure looks like you are getting a shit ton of agitation(2) 100 cfm pumps......i am still doing 5 gal. pail/air stones right now, and it is becoming woefully inadequite....but i am brewing up some pretty bad ass shit!.......and now my comfrey is ready to powderize in the morn....
Click to expand...
i just ordered organic comfrey seeds need to start them under flourescents asap!
 
nugbuckets

nugbuckets

Well-Known Member
kushking42 said:
i just ordered organic comfrey seeds need to start them under flourescents asap!
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bad ass.....thanks....i have been testing my new tea recipe on my vortex and sour kush....just posted new pics on my thread ...check it out.....it seems to be kicking some fucking ass....my vorti is really getting beefy....and she is just a delicate little thing!
 
kushking42

kushking42

Well-Known Member
nugbuckets said:
so far my tea is

homemade EWC
Guano N and P (N for now)
comfrey powder
kelp powder
sucanat
great white
usually have good foam and great smell in about 18/24 hours

would like to hear your critique
Click to expand...
i have some suggestions. bacteria and fungi come from good compost so source some fresh! thats the key. also drop the manures. they contain nothing but the bad stuff regarding bacteria. withh aact the whole point is multiplyin the good guys no need to introduce bad guys. fertilize them seperately from your aact. read that link i sent in previos response. thats an expert with a scope great info there. foam is no indication of wether or not you have a good tea. you can drop the great white. rule of thumb you dont add anything that doesnt help multiply fungi/bac

EDIT:so make your guano/comfrey tea just apply it seperately from your aact
 
nugbuckets

nugbuckets

Well-Known Member
kushking42 said:
i have some suggestions. bacteria and fungi come from good compost so source some fresh! thats the key. also drop the manures. they contain nothing but the bad stuff regarding bacteria. withh aact the whole point is multiplyin the good guys no need to introduce bad guys. fertilize them seperately from your aact. read that link i sent in previos response. thats an expert with a scope great info there. foam is no indication of wether or not you have a good tea. you can drop the great white.
Click to expand...
just stripping it all down ....arn't you!......dig it.........
 
nugbuckets

nugbuckets

Well-Known Member
would my homemade EWC count as good fresh compost?.....coincidently today a scrubed my air stones, and started brewing a batch with just my EWC, and sucanat.....i am still hoping for a good foam!....but i can usually tell how lively it is by the smell.......like a sweet tobacco....yummy........these castings are from my juicer fodder.....bad ass shit!.........also, i was not aware of bat guano having bad bac......more homework....
 
kushking42

kushking42

Well-Known Member
yes bro homemade ewc are the best. if you have some other good compost you can add to it for more diversity, but just your homemade ewc will be fine.

EDIT: when i first read your rundown i missed that u were using homemade
 
kushking42

kushking42

Well-Known Member
Nugs have you ever just taken a few hand fulls of ewc and stirred it up in a 5 gallon bucket of water. ewc slurry is a common name for it. cheaper than bottled nutes and almost as easy. works veg or flower. might be a good idea to get some some fast acting nutes for those plants that are yellowing a little early.
 
nugbuckets

nugbuckets

Well-Known Member
kushking42 said:
Nugs have you ever just taken a few hand fulls of ewc and stirred it up in a 5 gallon bucket of water. ewc slurry is a common name for it. cheaper than bottled nutes and almost as easy. works veg or flower. might be a good idea to get some some fast acting nutes for those plants that are yellowing a little early.
Click to expand...
i think i am set....i juiced them hard with teas this last week cause i knew my soil wasn't quite hot enough from the beginning....and again, i am only in 20 gal smarts, and these ladies are getting big!....when i say yellow, i am talking like just a few of the lowest of the low (have not plucked yet)......i took a close look at them tonight at sun down, and they are all nice dark Blue/green....so they really fed hard this last week and got caught up to speed......i plan to keep hitting them with tea almost every watering....at about 4-500 ppm....i do have a big back up bottle of organic bloom formula, just in case!...shhhhhhhh!
 
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