Let's Debate

marleyman educate yourself my friend

ThE sAtIvA hIgH said:

life is only short to athiests , if you believe in the fairy tale then you have another eternal life after this one lol

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So apparently you dont believe in recarnation and that your gonna come back as a tick on monkeys asshole? Cause I think I could see that happening.

@hiesenberg because you sound a lil more insightful than the racist.....if we look around we see that all things-the sun,the moon,the stars,oceans,mountains obey a law,..the law of the creator...we find no disorder or chaosin them.everythingis in its right place.we seeperfect order and total harmony in the system of nature that the creator has created.the sun rises in the east and sets in the west and there is no exception to this rule.the moon and stars shine at night.night passes, a new day comes, and so the process goes on.flowers blossom and the trees have green leaves in the spring.everything has a set course that cannot be violated.simply because they were made to obey the creator.they have no choice but to obey.this is why we find eternal peace in the system of nature.but human beings are different.the creator has given us the knowledge and ability to choose between right and wrong,not only this..in case we forget he has sent us constant reminders by sending his prophets and books for our guidance....hey heisenberg am i confused or just young?

were all the so called prophets of old mad men?this whole universe cant possibly be randomness...there has to be a designer with a plan for mankind..look how well you articulate did we evolve from mokeys?why didnt they evolve too?the creator increased your knowledge and understanding so that you may seek,find,and obey him...i believe this life is a test of character

tick on a monkeys ass lol@billybob!

BillyBobJoe said:

If your worried religion will influence your children than you better shelter them from the entire outside world.

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It's true, a child will have to deal with the ideas of religion to adjust to daily life, and indeed don't we want them to be exposed to all ideas and knowledge? A smart child is likely to stumble upon religious ideas on their own anyway. Ideally they will recognize bad ideas with time, if not at first. I don't think it's a tragedy unless the child is forced into religious dogma. When they are forced to worship and threatened with divine punishment and guilt, which of course is quite common. This isn't simply exposing a child to a belief and encouraging agreement, it's manipulating them into conformity and demanding compliance. Still, many atheists grew up with religious parents, and we seemed to turn out just fine.

And really is believing life is more than just a meaningless occurance that bad? Life is short man. Too short to worry about things like this. Believe what you want and keep it to yourself or your no better than the people you are saying are so wrong.

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Do you suppose we disbelieving because it feels good? Should we judge all claims of reality based on the need for comfort during a short life? Clearly, religion invades many parts of the average Americans life, especially on the morning of 911. You said yourself any child would have to be completely sheltered from the outside world to avoid religion. With all the religious networks, services, news prints, websites, radio shows, and a church on every block saying religion is right, you have the nerve to ask that we just keep quiet if we think they are wrong?

LOL.... you really are full of shit! Prove me wrong?

Also, explain why chinese have facial features different then us?

Why were negros given black skin rather then white?

why were whites given white rather then black?

you are a stupid fuck who gives atheists' a bad name!

but, just the same way you think about us, I think about you!

you are a crock pot of shit and should not deserve to be here...

fuck you and fuck you mother for bringing you into this earth that God created for me and my fellow man

ThE sAtIvA hIgH said:

i have to laugh at 'olly'shirt' lifters signiture .........it sounds like two gay men ..........ooooooooooooooh you rep me and i rep you back ............you show me your cock ill show you mine back lol

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find the quote asshole where it says that will prove God exists??

there is none, you are so full of yourself it is funny!!!!


you have not answered my questions and you let someone else who is smarter then you handle those tough questions!

you have no clue how to answer them

and you parents must of not liked or loved you very much and like i said, fuck your dumbass parents for bringing a piece of shit into this earth that God created for me and my fellow man

ThE sAtIvA hIgH said:

your questions are plain silly and even if i couldnt answer them , wich i have done and so has another person , it still does not prove your god exists , ...........its silly that you think if you could come up with a few questions that are hard to answer that it somehow justifys to you your beliefs are true .
my question to you is .......'what is it, that completey justifies to you that your beliefs are true , what is it that makes you think there is a god ?

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that explains atheism!

Heisenberg said:

It's true, a child will have to deal with the ideas of religion to adjust to daily life, and indeed don't we want them to be exposed to all ideas and knowledge? A smart child is likely to stumble upon religious ideas on their own anyway. Ideally they will recognize bad ideas with time, if not at first. I don't think it's a tragedy unless the child is forced into religious dogma. When they are forced to worship and threatened with divine punishment and guilt, which of course is quite common. This isn't simply exposing a child to a belief and encouraging agreement, it's manipulating them into conformity and demanding compliance. Still, many atheists grew up with religious parents, and we seemed to turn out just fine.




Do you suppose we disbelieving because it feels good? Should we judge all claims of reality based on the need for comfort during a short life? Clearly, religion invades many parts of the average Americans life, especially on the morning of 911. You said yourself any child would have to be completely sheltered from the outside world to avoid religion. With all the religious networks, services, news prints, websites, radio shows, and a church on every block saying religion is right, you have the nerve to ask that we just keep quiet if we think they are wrong?

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@ the OP, you know that gay remark you said is totally stupid! It is a sign of gratitude and appreciation to my fellow RIU'er.. a jackass like you will not understand that cause you hate God...

olylifter420 said:

that explains atheism!

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Well oly, it would be just as wrong to prevent a child from worshiping as it would be to force him into it. A parent certainly has the right to strongly impress their beliefs, but not force, no matter if it's religion or atheism. I think most atheists, being reasonable people, would agree. Don't forget that knowing I am atheist does not tell you anything about my policies on child rearing. Forcing your opinion on anyone is wrong, but why do you assume atheists do this as a matter of everyday practice? Many religions tell you that if you do not worship, you will be punished. Do atheists talk about punishment for not agreeing? Many children are forced to recite prayers and to partake in rituals such as fasting. Do atheists have rituals or rites of worship to force onto children?

marleyman5 said:

@hiesenberg because you sound a lil more insightful than the racist.....if we look around we see that all things-the sun,the moon,the stars,oceans,mountains obey a law,..the law of the creator...we find no disorder or chaosin them.everythingis in its right place.we seeperfect order and total harmony in the system of nature that the creator has created.the sun rises in the east and sets in the west and there is no exception to this rule.the moon and stars shine at night.night passes, a new day comes, and so the process goes on.flowers blossom and the trees have green leaves in the spring.everything has a set course that cannot be violated.simply because they were made to obey the creator.they have no choice but to obey.this is why we find eternal peace in the system of nature.but human beings are different.the creator has given us the knowledge and ability to choose between right and wrong,not only this..in case we forget he has sent us constant reminders by sending his prophets and books for our guidance....hey heisenberg am i confused or just young?

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I have no opinion on your age. If you are confused, I think it is because you are not considering all of the angles, and do not have all the information. For example, do you know what evolution really says? It does not say we evolved from monkeys, which is why we still have monkeys around. Monkeys of course evolved too, just not in the exact same way we did. Many of the arguments I hear against evolution are pointing out things that evolution does not say. Technically, evolution makes no claims about how life came to exist, only about how it evolved to became so complex. If god is all powerful, he could have created the universe in such a way that it appears completely random. So evolution in no way disproves a creator. What is does do is provide us with an explanation which does not require a creator. Sure a creator could have created a random universe, but where is the reason to suppose this? Where is the justification for making the extra assumption of a god? There is nothing to point us in that direction which survives being subjected to rigorous doubt and standards of evidence. It is an unnecessary assumption which is not supported.

The perfect harmony you speak of is indeed wondrous, I am amazed everyday, but lets keep it in perspective. How perfect is it? The vast majority of life has failed and become extinct. We have natural examples of destruction and entropy all around us. Everyday, everywhere we look, we are given examples of things in nature that just didn't work, on both a micro and macro level. When it comes to life, the complexity can be explained by an unimaginable period of time during which life engaged in trial and error. We have mountains of evidence of this trial and error and indeed it is ongoing today. The reason the human body seems to work so well is because of the countless billions of times when it didn't work. (such as babies born with lungs on the outside) Those expressions of humans didn't live to produce offspring, and so their trial became a failure. You are the living result of eons of successful tries.

As for why the universe obeys certain laws, we don't know. That is one thing science is trying to find out. But we must make sure we can be confident in out conclusions, and the scientific method is the best way humans have invented to assure this. There are many errors and mistakes inherit to the human condition, and we must be aware of these. Science is a systematic way of carefully and thoroughly observing nature while using consistent logic to evaluate the results. Can you think of a better approach? In any case, science may not know why there are universal laws, but there is nothing to point us in the direction of a creator.

When you hear something about evolution that just seems ridiculous, you should research and see if evolution actually makes that claim; like the idea that man evolved from monkeys. Many times if you were to take these claims to an evolution scientist, they would say something like "of course not, that's ridiculous." Most arguments against evolution are grounded in confusion about what evolution really claims.

i like your response...you also acknowledge a creator of science and laws of nature..i wonder whats behind all of this...indeed randomness happens but this universe i think is too complex to be random?

So you are saying what points you in the direction of a creator is the complexity of reality. You cannot personally fathom how the universe came to be so harmonious unless there was intelligent design. If to you this is enough reason to believe then that is fine for you. For me I realize that just because I can not understand something, it dose not mean that it can't be understood. I try not to confuse unexplained with inexplicable. For me the fact that I can not personally imagine the mechanics of seeming perfection does not in any way suggest a creator. It simply isn't good enough evidence, or without error. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

And so we have come to the point where our opinions diverge, and identified why. This is the goal of debate, and it seems better accomplished with a humble attitude and understanding of the thirst for answers, rather than simply attacking and insulting those we think are wrong. Progress lies within the tact, Sativa, not the position. I recognize the justification for combating ignorance, but question whether inflammatory methods do anything to accomplish those goals. Neither of us managed to change anyone's mind, but only one of us managed to encourage critical thought.

marleyman5 said:

i like your response...you also acknowledge a creator of science and laws of nature..i wonder whats behind all of this...indeed randomness happens but this universe i think is too complex to be random?

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You are very confused. No one person created science. No one made laws of nature, they are here because of they way the universe was formed. There might be an infinite number of universes, each with a different set of laws that govern them. Some work to allow things like matter to exist, others may fail to produce anything.

What Heis was trying to tell you is that assuming a conclusion of an intelligent creator in the question you ask is logically invalid, something called a fallacy. In court the opposing lawyer would object because of "leading." Like the old joke goes, "how often do you beat your wife?" is a leading question.

Complexity in nature has natural explanations. You might not like them but they make testable predictions which tells us we are on the right track. There is no reason to assume an intelligent creator just because things seem complex. It is lazy thinking to say that things seem complex, therefore... god. There is no shame is saying "I don't know." God is a substitute for digging deep and trying to solve a difficult problem. If someone gave you a complex math problem and half way through you get stuck and can't answer it, giving an answer of "god" is invalid. It is just as invalid to say that god created the universe and everything in it. The puzzle is incomplete, we don't have the answers. Goddidit as an answer is just giving up.

religion is a crazy thing.... I love the philosophy of God such a buetful idea ...but its get a little crazy first the idea that god looks like a man and not the universe its self yeah know .....than the thing that really scares me about the idea of god is the idea of heaven ..the talk about it having a gate to keep people out but is it to keep people in your soul will be stuck for-ever in "heaven" people never get to leave ...maybe it powers this god makes him stronger he cultivates souls here on earth untell there ready to be place in his battery of life than the devil get the bad souls bad souls on the bottom good souls on the top like positive and negative on battery ..weird take on it i know but the idea that god or devil might inpression my soul for eternity scares the hell out of me ..........how can the teach that to kids

ok it seems u have a point however,if you dont have all the answers how can you so strongly disprove the exsistance of intelligent design/creator being or whatever you call it/ in my mind we /are all here as one human race to be custodians of the earth.why do our differences divide us but as soon as a plane hits a tower or sumthin we forget our differences and unite as people should?maybe there is a lesson in all this racism haterd and biggotry...we are all human created equally right?or just randomly selected cells and microbes

marleyman5 said:

ok it seems u have a point however,if you dont have all the answers how can you so strongly disprove the exsistance of intelligent design/creator being or whatever you call it/ in my mind we /are all here as one human race to be custodians of the earth.why do our differences divide us but as soon as a plane hits a tower or sumthin we forget our differences and unite as people should?maybe there is a lesson in all this racism haterd and biggotry...we are all human created equally right?or just randomly selected cells and microbes

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What I have been saying all along is that science does not disprove divine intelligence, it simply offers an explanation which does not require any. Science does not favor the explanation of a deity because there is no reason to, not because it's been disproved. If I tell you there is a unicorn in the center of the sun, there is no reason for you to believe me, even though you can't disprove my claim.

Isn't the planes hitting the towers an example of division among humans? Although it lead to a temporary political union in america, didn't it serve to separate us even further from certain parts of the world? Was not the motivation behind that day religion? You seem to be asking us to look at the big picture, humanity as a whole, and then only looking at a specific part of it.

All life, whether it was created or simply stumbled into existence, deserves to live without suffering. That is why racism and acts of bigotry are wrong. If we are just randomly selected cells and microbes, it doesn't change this fact. Hatred on the other hand, is a state of mind, a feeling, and I am not comfortable trying to control what someone is feeling. So hatred I will tolerate, but oppression I will not.

marleyman5 said:

ok it seems u have a point however,if you dont have all the answers how can you so strongly disprove the exsistance of intelligent design/creator being or whatever you call it/ in my mind we /are all here as one human race to be custodians of the earth.why do our differences divide us but as soon as a plane hits a tower or sumthin we forget our differences and unite as people should?maybe there is a lesson in all this racism haterd and biggotry...we are all human created equally right?or just randomly selected cells and microbes

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No one has disproved the existence of an intelligent creator. No one has disproved the existence of an invisible dragon that lives in my garage either. A person first has to posit the existence of something before anyone even attempts to disprove it. The question should be why do you propose that some unseen/unseeable, super-intelligent being exists in the first place? Nothing complex in this universe ever came into existence suddenly, without any precursors. Everything we know of started from much simpler beginnings. Something intelligent that has the power to create all of this complex universe certainly needs an explanation too. It must have come from somewhere. It must have evolved from simpler beginnings like everything else, otherwise it it becomes the lazy man's answer like I said before. Why should anyone's assumptions start with something so complex that it defies explanation? Any answer that uses that assumption is meaningless because the assumption itself is unanswerable.

The differences that divide us are imaginary, things created by the human mind. It seems like religious beliefs are and have been the things that have divided us more so than anything else. As soon as people begin to understand that we are all connected through the same processes that made the stars in the sky and the dirt beneath our feet, we will have a much easier time getting along. The one thing that seems to ignore borders and nations is science. As much as they disagree on the details, the scientists in every country operate as an open-source community. We share our information with each other and continue to learn and build our collective knowledge. Scientists and atheists are generally the last people that want to go to war over anything. We are the ones that keep saying we only have one Earth and it's up to us, not as individual nations, but as humans, to work together to keep mankind safe and reach out to the stars as we know even the earth will not be here/habitable forever.