The 'Official' Do Not Vote For Obama In 2012 - Thread. Don't Want Him Back N Office!
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mame
Well-Known Member
I love how the conservatives on these boards continue to ignore evidence in favor of their idealogy and then blame the liberals on these boards of being partisan.
Where are the facts to support the conservative agenda? This thread is 47 pages long, another thread - entitled Where is the PROOF the conservative agenda works? is 11 pages long, and ANOTHER thread here ("where's the proof librulism works") that's 9 pages long and we've still seen no hard evidence to suggest that Progressivism does not work(in fact, there is plenty of evidence suggesting it does work) - nor is there any evidence to support conservatism's "success".
How can one argue on the wrong side of facts?
At the very least, you conservatives types have failed to present your case - and at the worst, you have demonstrated that there is no defense to your idealogy except for just that - idealogy. Your collective "fuck you" to society is selfish, unrealistic and historically a detriment to society as a whole.
Where are the facts to support the conservative agenda? This thread is 47 pages long, another thread - entitled Where is the PROOF the conservative agenda works? is 11 pages long, and ANOTHER thread here ("where's the proof librulism works") that's 9 pages long and we've still seen no hard evidence to suggest that Progressivism does not work(in fact, there is plenty of evidence suggesting it does work) - nor is there any evidence to support conservatism's "success".
How can one argue on the wrong side of facts?
At the very least, you conservatives types have failed to present your case - and at the worst, you have demonstrated that there is no defense to your idealogy except for just that - idealogy. Your collective "fuck you" to society is selfish, unrealistic and historically a detriment to society as a whole.
mame
Well-Known Member
You're drawing a false equivelancy. The evidence, found in history, supports Progressivism soundly. On the other hand, conservative assertions have failed that same test of time.
1+1 is always 2. You dont say "oh well bob says 1+1=3 so I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt in the interest of fairness..." You say, "1+1=2, Bob must be pretty fucking retarded."
Dont worry, it's not your fault; The media has been engaging in this very practice as far back as anyone can remember. Paul Ryan's plan, for example, can't do any of the things it says it will do and will likely cost money - not save it. Despite this, you still have the media praising him for his "seriousness". pfft.
btw, the debt ceiling has been risen 74+ times since 1962... Most of the time to adjust for things like inflation (Dollar numbers get bigger over time you know). Considering our debt to GDP ratio in 1946 was over 120% and it's ~90% now - I'd say we aren't as broke as many would have you think.
newworldicon
Well-Known Member
May I ask where you got your last paragraphs info from...can you link or cite it for me plz. thanks
Also I think that dank is looking at what is happening now and in the past say 20-30 years, perhaps even since the first decade of the 20th century. Whereas you are talking form an overall perspective, the problem I have with that type of thinking is it suits statistics but not politics because we all know politics is not just about the books.
Correct me if I'm wrong dank.
mame
Well-Known Member
http://money.cnn.com/2011/01/03/news/economy/debt_ceiling_faqs/index.htm
The GDP numbers come from a graph, I'll cite it as well... it's in another post on these boards (here)
But is that a bad thing? I'd argue that a lot of the problems with our nation today stem from political fears holding policymakers hostage despite what would be the best for the economy. A perfect example of what happens to politicians who do the right thing despite overwhelming opposition is George H.W. Bush. He went back on a campaign promise not to raise taxes because he knew it was needed(at the time, he had embarked on an agenda to get the deficit left by Reagan under control). It was the right thing to do...
History helps us make the right choice. I dont see that as a bad thing.
MrDank007
Well-Known Member
Agreed. But, the world is not the same as it was in 1946 either. And today, a much greater share of the public debt is held by foreign creditors. We can not neccesarily just inflate away. There is a real concern that the U.S. appears to be headed toward a default related to its debt limit. Interest payments on the federal debt are certain to rise in the next decade substantially. So when all this "progessive bullshit" blows up as it did to several economies in Europe, you will still be historically correct.
newworldicon
Well-Known Member
I could post a link as well that says the same thing but how trustworthy is the reporting, CNN has probably taken it's info from the governments release but just how accurate are those numbers, all I am saying is I don't trust them!
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/federal_debt_chart.html
Whilst I cannot argue with this incident of Bush changing his mind on taxes and in reality if it was needed then it was the right thing to do.
I also think that we should be able to learn from history and in so many ways we do but in politics it has almost always been different, when last has the vast majority been happy with a President and the state of the country, it has always been in debt, it has always been at war give or take a decade, it has always been on a downward spiral.
I look at America and see them living the Utopian dream in the 50's + 60's but from then on out it was down hill. So how much learning from history has been made, in theory we learn from our mistakes but in reality it is different. That is history!
newworldicon
Well-Known Member
People need to know what the real state of affairs are with the involvement of the foreign creditors in the US economy, also consider that the US government is looking at expanding it's off shore oil expeditions in the gulf and in Alaska which would overtake and replace the bankers and their hedge funding as the main driver in the economy, this will of course force the bankers to fight for that top dog placing, all of this means trouble trouble trouble!
Mellowman2112
Well-Known Member
This liberal and conservative republican and democrat is all window dressing. They are both parties bought and paid for. They are all fingerpuppets with Rothschildes finger up their asses. Wake up!!!! Obama was supposed to be a big change and all I see is the same old shit. They are all on their knees sucking Rockefellor dick!!
newworldicon
Well-Known Member
Well this is what I have been saying all along but not as bluntly!
Serapis
Well-Known Member
GottaHaveIt
Active Member
Obama said he would close Guantanamo (still open)
Obama said he would not fill his administration with lobbyists (lolsauce)
Obama said we would leave Afghanistan (still there)
Obama said we would leave Iraq (still there, never leaving)
Obama said TARP was going to buy toxic mortgages (banks who got TARP money bought the banks who did not get TARP money)
Obama said no bills would have forced votes until Congress and the American People had five days to read them. (health care bill final version released 1 hour before vote)
Obama said he would get us out of NAFTA (while Biden was telling the Canadians that it was just 'a campaign point' and not to worry)
The only thing I can find that he actually did isn't something he said, but a mash up of two... "America is the greatest nation on earth"..."I believe we can change that"
that's not true, he did say energy costs would rise.
Obama said he would not fill his administration with lobbyists (lolsauce)
Obama said we would leave Afghanistan (still there)
Obama said we would leave Iraq (still there, never leaving)
Obama said TARP was going to buy toxic mortgages (banks who got TARP money bought the banks who did not get TARP money)
Obama said no bills would have forced votes until Congress and the American People had five days to read them. (health care bill final version released 1 hour before vote)
Obama said he would get us out of NAFTA (while Biden was telling the Canadians that it was just 'a campaign point' and not to worry)
The only thing I can find that he actually did isn't something he said, but a mash up of two... "America is the greatest nation on earth"..."I believe we can change that"
that's not true, he did say energy costs would rise.
Serapis
Well-Known Member
The only reason there is fear of a default in the national debt is because the Republicans plan to attack abortion and health care with riders on the bill to raise the debt. It is the wrong time to slam the ceiling on the debt, not now, not after numbers showing a rebounding economy. Don't forget how long it took us to get in this mess we are in. A majority of that debt was incurred under Reagan and GW Bush. It took years to accumulate, and no one should expect it to disappear before the next election. Obama came into office promising to tackle the debt when the economy turned around. The man had a road map that he wanted to follow in his presidency. Tackling the national debt was the 4th or 5th item on the list of to do's, but it has to be at the right time. We can certainly trim some government spending now and get it under the revenue level.
We can start by eliminating useless weapons programs that favor special interests or regions. Sec R Gates wants to trim a log of fat from the military, that is why Obama has him serving. The president has only been in office 27 months. The end of this year will see our commitment to Iraq drop and we'll begin bringing home troops from Afghanistan if trends continue. Now that Obama will lay out a deficit reduction plan, like Clinton did, will the Republicans do a 180 and fight it, just to obstruct?
Conservatism has no glory in history. Point me to a single era.... please... help me understand those ways....
We can start by eliminating useless weapons programs that favor special interests or regions. Sec R Gates wants to trim a log of fat from the military, that is why Obama has him serving. The president has only been in office 27 months. The end of this year will see our commitment to Iraq drop and we'll begin bringing home troops from Afghanistan if trends continue. Now that Obama will lay out a deficit reduction plan, like Clinton did, will the Republicans do a 180 and fight it, just to obstruct?
Conservatism has no glory in history. Point me to a single era.... please... help me understand those ways....
Serapis
Well-Known Member
I challenge you to back up your statements. the first one I'll stipulate. The rest are all distortions or out right fabrications. As for Afghanistan, he actually promised to increase troop levels to fight the real war that America should have been involved in from the beginning. He was against the Iraq war from the beginning. He also wasn't president when the declaration was signed extending US forces until Dec 31, 2011. We are committed until that date. In fact, the Iraqi's referenced Obama's timetable when negotiating the new terms! Obama had no say so in TARP, it was a passed law under Bush and was under the Treasury's review. Show us where Obama is quoted making that statement regarding toxic mortgages. Also, explain the Making Homes Affordable Act and tell us how many American's have had their mortgages adjusted due to Obama's program.
Please reference your claims.... I believe them all to be false.... btw, Gitmo is still open, but Obama is still in office. That promise will be kept. Obama made more than 500 promises while campaigning and has only failed to keep 41 so far.... So please, back up your claims, other than just making personal statements.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/
I have sources..... do you?
Please reference your claims.... I believe them all to be false.... btw, Gitmo is still open, but Obama is still in office. That promise will be kept. Obama made more than 500 promises while campaigning and has only failed to keep 41 so far.... So please, back up your claims, other than just making personal statements.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/
I have sources..... do you?
Mellowman2112
Well-Known Member
That only a very small percentage want to face the truth. Glad that you have. People think we are nutcases or something but the proof is only a few googles away. Which makes me wonder when are they going to shut down our internet. I was in China last year and I could not even open my facebook site.
newworldicon
Well-Known Member
I think they know that there are people with the means to circumvent a total control of the internet so they won't commit to it, not now at least, I'd be more concerned about logging traffic, it's the immediate hurdle to jump....good luck brother!
Mellowman2112
Well-Known Member
your right! I am sure I will be on the list and stuck in some camp or mass grave they have all over the country. I wonder when they are going to implement their nefarious plan?
from the coffin stockpiles being readied I dont think its far away. Good luck to you too.
from the coffin stockpiles being readied I dont think its far away. Good luck to you too.
MrDank007
Well-Known Member
I challenge you to back up your statements. the first one I'll stipulate. The rest are all distortions or out right fabrications. As for Afghanistan, he actually promised to increase troop levels to fight the real war that America should have been involved in from the beginning. He was against the Iraq war from the beginning. He also wasn't president when the declaration was signed extending US forces until Dec 31, 2011. We are committed until that date. In fact, the Iraqi's referenced Obama's timetable when negotiating the new terms! Obama had no say so in TARP, it was a passed law under Bush and was under the Treasury's review. Show us where Obama is quoted making that statement regarding toxic mortgages. Also, explain the Making Homes Affordable Act and tell us how many American's have had their mortgages adjusted due to Obama's program.
Please reference your claims.... I believe them all to be false.... btw, Gitmo is still open, but Obama is still in office. That promise will be kept. Obama made more than 500 promises while campaigning and has only failed to keep 41 so far.... So please, back up your claims, other than just making personal statements.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/
I have sources..... do you?
Half of Obama's campaign was geared around these wars, which we are still in. He promised we would be out of them by now and to boot we are in Libya with no clear objective.
That is not even close to the only reason. However, one thing I agree on is that dragging planned parenthood to the forefront of this debate was stupid. They will never learn, unfortunately.
Ok, we've been running a deficit for a long time. Obama put his foot on the gas at the wrong time. While he clearly can't be blamed for all of it, he sure has been spend happy at the wrong time. Not to mention that sooner or later...he will get around to jobs and the economy. He spent his wad jamming healthcare down everyone's throat while basically ignoring the economy.
mame
Well-Known Member
I would be the happiest dude on the planet if the U.S. took a lesser role on the world stage. The problem with that however, is that our politicians seem to have an ego problem (U.S.A. #1 lololol)
You're right.
The 50's and 60's could be described as the only time in American history when the American dream could be achieved by anyone who tried with very few being left out (as long as you ignore civil rights issues). So what was the key to this prosperity? Well, as I've argued before - the New Deal had a big hand in creating this prosperity as well as WW2 - both leading towards mass redistribution.
What a lot of people don't realize though, is what kind of actions the government took in WW2 that had a huge effect on the 50's and 60's. The policies, for lack of a better term, were socialist in nature. The era in which this happened - just before, during and after WW2 - was called the "Great Compression"... A long ago forgotten time when there was an unprecedented redistribution of wealth from the top to the bottom. Prices were regulated by the OPA (office of Price Administration, in effect until shortly after the war ended), many sectors of the economy were suspended or under the direct control of the government(for example, auto manufacturing plants were used for wartime production instead) and top earners were taxed at rates never before(or after for that matter) seen percentages (over 90%).
All this time, unions started to really gain power (much of this due to New Deal policies) and once WW2 ended... They flexed that power. because of the heavy government regulation that was needed in WW2, there was a shortage in certain commodities (like cars) which led to a shortage in workers... The unions know how market forces work - they demanded higher pay(there were strikes, etc... and the government eventually passed a couple laws to limit union power a bit). Also, because of the wage controls - employers began to more commonly offer employer attached health insurance... etc. as a way to attract the best workers despite not being allowed to pay them a better wage, this practice (offering benefits to attract better workers) became common is is still prevalent today - mostly because post-war unions made sure those benefits weren't ever lost.
Essentially the New Deal and WW2 created the perfect conditions for upwards pressure in wages for the average American... Which is something that - at least dating back the early 80's - market forces alone have failed to produce (wages since 1980 have been stagnant, rising barely at the same rate as inflation). It sounds like "socialism" and in a lot of ways the U.S. did engage in socialism during war time... But the facts are there and what we all see from the 50's and 60's is the product. It was the American dream..