walls are sweating BAD!

mountain dweller

Well-Known Member
Whats up guys need some advise......Its winter here and I moved my room to a 10 x 20 room thats under my porch. Its one door in from basement,all concrete walls so no leaks. This room has never had heat to it until now. Setting it up I painted all the walls with waterproof paint (flat white) and floor and ran all new electric in there. Now that i have it up and running the ceiling is sweating so bad it is constantly dripping on the plants,water condensing on the floor even the walls are sweating where it is above grade and its driving me nuts!

I put up 2 inch foam from lowes on the ceiling with liquid nails and tapcons with washers now i notice water dripping from the Tapcon heads. im about to pull each tapcon and fill with foam one by one and reinstall .

Just wondering if you guys have ever had this problem and how you solved it
 

JSB99

Well-Known Member
Whats up guys need some advise......Its winter here and I moved my room to a 10 x 20 room thats under my porch. Its one door in from basement,all concrete walls so no leaks. This room has never had heat to it until now. Setting it up I painted all the walls with waterproof paint (flat white) and floor and ran all new electric in there. Now that i have it up and running the ceiling is sweating so bad it is constantly dripping on the plants,water condensing on the floor even the walls are sweating where it is above grade and its driving me nuts!

I put up 2 inch foam from lowes on the ceiling with liquid nails and tapcons with washers now i notice water dripping from the Tapcon heads. im about to pull each tapcon and fill with foam one by one and reinstall .

Just wondering if you guys have ever had this problem and how you solved it
Yeah, that's not good at all. I'd invest in a really good dehumidifier and check your circulation and exhaust to make sure it's sufficient.
 

JSB99

Well-Known Member
Whats up guys need some advise......Its winter here and I moved my room to a 10 x 20 room thats under my porch. Its one door in from basement,all concrete walls so no leaks. This room has never had heat to it until now. Setting it up I painted all the walls with waterproof paint (flat white) and floor and ran all new electric in there. Now that i have it up and running the ceiling is sweating so bad it is constantly dripping on the plants,water condensing on the floor even the walls are sweating where it is above grade and its driving me nuts!

I put up 2 inch foam from lowes on the ceiling with liquid nails and tapcons with washers now i notice water dripping from the Tapcon heads. im about to pull each tapcon and fill with foam one by one and reinstall .

Just wondering if you guys have ever had this problem and how you solved it
Putting up foam is not going to solve the issue and you'll actually end up with a lot of mold. The room being air tight is probably part of the issue. The humidity from the plants caused by the heat doesn't have anywhere to go so it condenses on the walls. You need a really good exhaust for the room and a dehumidifier. If you can somehow mount a window ac, it would do both.

When you get to flowering and you have these humidity issues you're going to have a lot of issues. You have to keep humidity low during flowering otherwise you end up with mold, fungus, bud rot, and pests (like spidermites).
 

justugh

Well-Known Member
what he said

or u can use a propane Co2 burner the flame will dry the air out .....or u can use those old fashion space heaters (u know heater coil and fan) that will lower the humidity.
 

JSB99

Well-Known Member
what he said

or u can use a propane Co2 burner the flame will dry the air out .....or u can use those old fashion space heaters (u know heater coil and fan) that will lower the humidity.
And running co2 will allow you to have higher temps. But, the co2 really doesn't have any effect on your plants (meaning absorption) until the flowering stage. During veg it would just help to dry the room. The size of the room you have would probably need something fairly robust though.
 

mountain dweller

Well-Known Member
hmmm yea I just figured the foam would insulate the cold concrete from the heat of the room(it is my flower room) so no condensation could form. I have a dehumidifier in their but admittedly havent been using it lately. The bad part of 8 inch concrete walls poured in 1938 is its VERY hard to drill vents and shit like that. I open the door for a little while everyday after the lights come on but now im gonna install good ventilation. Hammerdrill time.....
 

JSB99

Well-Known Member
hmmm yea I just figured the foam would insulate the cold concrete from the heat of the room(it is my flower room) so no condensation could form. I have a dehumidifier in their but admittedly havent been using it lately. The bad part of 8 inch concrete walls poured in 1938 is its VERY hard to drill vents and shit like that. I open the door for a little while everyday after the lights come on but now im gonna install good ventilation. Hammerdrill time.....
Yeah, that's going to be tough to fight. Maybe some experts came chime in and offer some suggestions. You might be forced to move it to another location or do some heavy or inventive modifications. It's a great sized room and you've run power down there and went through a whole bunch of effort, so it's a question of moving forward or backing everything out. you might be able to mount a couple window ACs from the ceiling and drain to the outside with some plumbing.
 

panhead

Well-Known Member
At one point in my life i was a Journeyman waterproofer , whats going on is called Thermal Shock where hot air is touching a cold surface , think about how windows in some houses get moisture build up & the glass sweats , or a bottle of cold beer on a hot day , same principal , the area above the cieling is cold while the area below is heated , where the 2 temps meet you get moisture , a dehumidifier will not correct this problem .

1st off what type ceiling do you have ? Cement slab or wooden floor joist type ?

Being that you mentioned tapcons i would say concrete slab , with that said 1st thing you want to do is lower the room temp where condensation stops dripping , put fans blowing on the concrete & seal it with a waterproofer , if you allready sealed when you painted skip this step .

Next you want to install multiple layers of insulation with adhesive , install 1 layer at a time & hold the inso in place with 2x4 braces until the glue sets , rubber roofing glue works fastest , its a contact adhesive that you paint on the substrate & on the insulation , wait until barely tacky then stick the inso to the ceiling , brace it for a few hours then install a 2nd layer .
When installing the 1st layer make sure all joints are tight & any corners , edges or penetrations are extremely tight fitting so no cold/hot air can penetrate .

The 2nd layer you want to install where no joints end up in the same place , all insulation joints should be 6 to 12 inches past the joints in the 1st layer , joints that match up are called railroad tracks & will allow massive condensation to form no matter how thick or how many layers used .

If you must use tapcons & washers remember the tapcon is in direct contact with both the ice cold concrete & your heated room which creates thermal shock at the point the tapcon & washer are exposed to warm air .

If at all possible clean all snow & ice from the porch & lay just about anything on top the concrete , stuff like outdoor carpet , cardboard , throw rugs ect will help keep the concrete a few degrees warmer , insulating a heated space with a concrete roof/porch slab over top is gonna require a r value of atleast 15 to as high as r 30 , there are several different foam board types & each has different r values & suitability .

The cheapest is Expanded Polystyrene Foam which is pretty much the same shit a styrafoam cup is made of , its an open cell insulation ,its highly susceptible to mold & easily water logged , its also the lowest r value of r-5 per inch of thickness , open cell boards have less r value per inch vs closed cell types .

The next & better insulation is Extruded Polystyrene Foam commonly called blue board or pink board ,its a much better choice , more resistant to mold & dont retain water easily , its r value is the same at r-5 per inch but its a better choice & comes with tounge & groove joints to reduce therm shock .

The last type is Polyisocyanurate , its the best r value , the highest mold resistance & comes in a foil backed light reflective backed board type , its got an r value of r-8 per 1 inch of thickness .

If it were me i'd use 2 layers of blue board & glue the 1st layer to the ceiling , then install another layer of blue board making sure no joints meet & are staggered atleast 6 inches , the double layers of tounge & groove blue board will really help keep hot from meeting cold , at this point you'd have r-10 which is barely enough & most likely not enough .

For the 3rd layer i'd use foil backed Polyunsaturate better known as ISO at supply houses , i'd use a layer of 3 inch thick ISO board with an r value of 24 , glue it up making sure no joints meet or overlap & with the reflective foli side facing inside the room , the 3 layer insulation would give you an r value of r-34 which will stop any & all condensation .

At the corners , penetrations & where walls meet ceiling i'd use spray foam insulation in a can making sure to fill any gaps tightly .

That is the proper way to insulate a cement substrate with a heated interior comming in direct contact with unheated exterior .

Roofing supply houses are the best places to buy the products & the most knowledgeable in helping explain how to properly use the yellow substrate glue & different insulations , it sounds like alot but it really isnt .
 

panhead

Well-Known Member
what he said

or u can use a propane Co2 burner the flame will dry the air out .....or u can use those old fashion space heaters (u know heater coil and fan) that will lower the humidity.
Not trying to bust chops but raising the temps & making the room hotter is the worst thing to do , warmer temps will only increase thermal shock & increase condensation .

The op was on the right track to start with , the tapcons he used to secure the inso to the cement with acted like wicks drawing moisture in , he just need to glue the inso up & take great care at joints & wall to ceiling connection points .
 

Bootheel Grower

Active Member
Your intake air is to cold.. You can't bring 20 degree air into a 80 degree room.. You'll make it rain in ur grow room.. Just intake from inside the house or run a heater in your lung room
 

panhead

Well-Known Member
hmmm yea I just figured the foam would insulate the cold concrete from the heat of the room(it is my flower room) so no condensation could form. I have a dehumidifier in their but admittedly havent been using it lately. The bad part of 8 inch concrete walls poured in 1938 is its VERY hard to drill vents and shit like that. I open the door for a little while everyday after the lights come on but now im gonna install good ventilation. Hammerdrill time.....
If you've got a hammer drill & even knew wtf a tapcon was in the 1st place ( most dont know ) then you most likely have some construction or handyman skills , ive been thru the vent installation process through solid cement walls when building my 8 flood n drain table 25,000 watt grow , i can give you alot of time saving tips when the time comes such as venting lights thru the plumbing vent on the roof , getting rid of waste water via grey water lines allready in use & venting the room via drilling thru solid concrete walls , once a single 6 inch hole penetrates the wall you can use floor model air units that vent heat via flexable ducting .
 

Silky Shagsalot

Well-Known Member
my neighbor has a similar prob. his intake, from outside is dripping a lot. cold air into a warm room in the winter. i don't think he's solved his prob. yet...
 

mountain dweller

Well-Known Member
At one point in my life i was a Journeyman waterproofer , whats going on is called Thermal Shock where hot air is touching a cold surface , think about how windows in some houses get moisture build up & the glass sweats , or a bottle of cold beer on a hot day , same principal , the area above the cieling is cold while the area below is heated , where the 2 temps meet you get moisture , a dehumidifier will not correct this problem .

1st off what type ceiling do you have ? Cement slab or wooden floor joist type ?

Being that you mentioned tapcons i would say concrete slab , with that said 1st thing you want to do is lower the room temp where condensation stops dripping , put fans blowing on the concrete & seal it with a waterproofer , if you allready sealed when you painted skip this step .

Next you want to install multiple layers of insulation with adhesive , install 1 layer at a time & hold the inso in place with 2x4 braces until the glue sets , rubber roofing glue works fastest , its a contact adhesive that you paint on the substrate & on the insulation , wait until barely tacky then stick the inso to the ceiling , brace it for a few hours then install a 2nd layer .
When installing the 1st layer make sure all joints are tight & any corners , edges or penetrations are extremely tight fitting so no cold/hot air can penetrate .

The 2nd layer you want to install where no joints end up in the same place , all insulation joints should be 6 to 12 inches past the joints in the 1st layer , joints that match up are called railroad tracks & will allow massive condensation to form no matter how thick or how many layers used .

If you must use tapcons & washers remember the tapcon is in direct contact with both the ice cold concrete & your heated room which creates thermal shock at the point the tapcon & washer are exposed to warm air .

If at all possible clean all snow & ice from the porch & lay just about anything on top the concrete , stuff like outdoor carpet , cardboard , throw rugs ect will help keep the concrete a few degrees warmer , insulating a heated space with a concrete roof/porch slab over top is gonna require a r value of atleast 15 to as high as r 30 , there are several different foam board types & each has different r values & suitability .

The cheapest is Expanded Polystyrene Foam which is pretty much the same shit a styrafoam cup is made of , its an open cell insulation ,its highly susceptible to mold & easily water logged , its also the lowest r value of r-5 per inch of thickness , open cell boards have less r value per inch vs closed cell types .

The next & better insulation is Extruded Polystyrene Foam commonly called blue board or pink board ,its a much better choice , more resistant to mold & dont retain water easily , its r value is the same at r-5 per inch but its a better choice & comes with tounge & groove joints to reduce therm shock .

The last type is Polyisocyanurate , its the best r value , the highest mold resistance & comes in a foil backed light reflective backed board type , its got an r value of r-8 per 1 inch of thickness .

If it were me i'd use 2 layers of blue board & glue the 1st layer to the ceiling , then install another layer of blue board making sure no joints meet & are staggered atleast 6 inches , the double layers of tounge & groove blue board will really help keep hot from meeting cold , at this point you'd have r-10 which is barely enough & most likely not enough .

For the 3rd layer i'd use foil backed Polyunsaturate better known as ISO at supply houses , i'd use a layer of 3 inch thick ISO board with an r value of 24 , glue it up making sure no joints meet or overlap & with the reflective foli side facing inside the room , the 3 layer insulation would give you an r value of r-34 which will stop any & all condensation .

At the corners , penetrations & where walls meet ceiling i'd use spray foam insulation in a can making sure to fill any gaps tightly .

That is the proper way to insulate a cement substrate with a heated interior comming in direct contact with unheated exterior .

Roofing supply houses are the best places to buy the products & the most knowledgeable in helping explain how to properly use the yellow substrate glue & different insulations , it sounds like alot but it really isnt .
Hey man thanks for the knowledge, so you dont think two inches of blue board is enough? I only have 7 foot ceilings in there and I cant really drop the ceiling down much past two inches. I used liquid nails for paneling and foamboard the problem is now I cant get the ceiling (which is concrete) really dry and the stuff wont hold. Hell I even took my torch and tried to flame dry it but by the time i got to the other end what I had already done was moist again. thats why I broke out the Tapcons.
 

panhead

Well-Known Member
Hey man thanks for the knowledge, so you dont think two inches of blue board is enough? I only have 7 foot ceilings in there and I cant really drop the ceiling down much past two inches. I used liquid nails for paneling and foamboard the problem is now I cant get the ceiling (which is concrete) really dry and the stuff wont hold. Hell I even took my torch and tried to flame dry it but by the time i got to the other end what I had already done was moist again. thats why I broke out the Tapcons.
Weather 2 inches of blue board is gonna be enough to stop condensation depends on how cold outside temps are .

2 layers of board are only r-10 & thats not much , in Michigan building code requires an r value of 49 for attic space which isnt your situation but gives you an idea .

When installing a new flat roof over a cement deck a minimum r-20 is recommended, this scenario closely resembles your situation , your 2 inches of blue board is r-10 .

Did you use a single 2 inch layer or multiple 1 inch layers ? This is important , 1 layer leaves seams where air passes thru ,2 layers of 1 inch thick board may solve your problem if you stagger the joints where there not stacked , when you stack seams/joints in insulation air flows thru the joints & causes condensation , with staggered tounge & groove joints you might stand a chance if you get the concrete dry 1st .

Liquid nails wont work for your application because of the time it takes to cure ,even with perfectly dry concrete it takes weeks to cure .

If you have a Menards by you they sell the yellow substrate glue you need in 1 gallon cans , if you can dry the concrete by cooling the room down & fan drying it the glue will dry in 15 minutes , paint rhe concrete & insulation with the glue ,let it dry where your finger barely feels tacky ,then you stick the inso board up & its there for life , then glue the inso on the ceiling & the back side of the 2nd layer & repeat .
 

_MrBelvedere_

Well-Known Member
Should focus fixing your venting issues as the other posters have said. Insulation may help a little bit, but fixing the venting is the first step. Do you have thermostats on your fans? Your buds are gonna get moldy if you let it stay humid in there.

Since you have problem making a duct cause the concrete, you can install a squirrel cage fan at the TOP of your door and blow the hot air OUT of your grow room. Cut two inches off the BOTTOM of your door (or anywhere else in the room you can drill thru) that will naturally bring in cool air. Put the squirell cage fan on a thermostat, and it will only come on when the temperature reaches 75 degrees. Make sense? Doable? Thx...
 

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mountain dweller

Well-Known Member
hell yea, taking care of the venting tomorrow when I can get me a new hammerdrill.

And Panhead, I know exactly what glue you are talking about as i am a custom woodworker/cabinetmaker and that is the glue we use to apply laminate and i can pump that shit right out of 55 gallon drums at work.Problem i see is still drying it up, but Im gonna take what i have down, take the lights and shit out but as soon as the temps draw down i think its gonna ice up rather than dry out unless i can draw the temps down slowly. I dont know guess imma try a few things and see how it goes worst case that will be my summer room lol
 

panhead

Well-Known Member
@panhead do you tuck tape the seams or just stagger them?

You should allways stagger the seams , you never want air to have a straight shot at the substrate , taping seams is optional on the bottom layers as air flow is allready blocked by the staggered joints , its a good idea to tape the top layer though .

- Jiji
 
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