War

printer said:

The Germans can defend themselves with the ammo if someone attacks them, why another country can not defend themselves with the same ammo is retarded.

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Germany asking Switzerland to change its main principle, ‘permanent’ neutrality, is the retarded part. Why another country currently in war cannot defend themselves with the same ammo is contractual, Swiss law, and internationally agreed neutrality as defined in the 1907 Hague convention. Equal treatment, not supporting either side (currently) in an armed conflict. Allowing Germans to export the ammo to a nation in war is for Switzerland effectively the same as ending Swiss’ permanent neutrality. They could do that in theory but only a tiny percentage of the population wants, it would be political suicide for something that would still only apply to future sales.

Germany knew before they asked Switzerland again to give up who they are, it would be rejected. Yet still asked officially and publicly to put pressure on and shame Switzerland for basically just being Switzerland. Germany is now threatening to stop buying arms and ammo from Switzerland entirely, while it was always a given logical obvious condition they couldn’t re-export it to active conflicts.

Sativied said:

Germany asking Switzerland to change its main principle, ‘permanent’ neutrality, is the retarded part. Why another country currently in war cannot defend themselves with the same ammo is contractual, Swiss law, and internationally agreed neutrality as defined in the 1907 Hague convention. Equal treatment, not supporting either side (currently) in an armed conflict. Allowing Germans to export the ammo to a nation in war is for Switzerland effectively the same as ending Swiss’ permanent neutrality. They could do that in theory but only a tiny percentage of the population wants, it would be political suicide for something that would still only apply to future sales.

Germany knew before they asked Switzerland again to give up who they are, it would be rejected. Yet still asked officially and publicly to put pressure on and shame Switzerland for basically just being Switzerland. Germany is now threatening to stop buying arms and ammo from Switzerland entirely, while it was always a given logical obvious condition they couldn’t re-export it to active conflicts.

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Time to change the law to reflect the new realities in Europe which is why there is discussion about joining NATO. They won't sell any future arms in Europe after this, and the law will kill their arms industry moving forward, though it is their choice to make. I suppose the companies could always move to other countries though.

Concerning this atrocious war I am pleasantly surprised at how tight Ukraine's security services have been. At the outset of hostilities,I had much anxiety concerning Russian agents already being planted in Ukraine. I expected acts of sabotage and assasinations and even thought Zelinsky would be killed by someone inside, I am heartened that these fears have not come to fruition,kudos to Ukranian intell. services,a magnificent performance to date.

Sativied said:

Germany asking Switzerland to change its main principle, ‘permanent’ neutrality, is the retarded part. Why another country currently in war cannot defend themselves with the same ammo is contractual, Swiss law, and internationally agreed neutrality as defined in the 1907 Hague convention. Equal treatment, not supporting either side (currently) in an armed conflict. Allowing Germans to export the ammo to a nation in war is for Switzerland effectively the same as ending Swiss’ permanent neutrality. They could do that in theory but only a tiny percentage of the population wants, it would be political suicide for something that would still only apply to future sales.

Germany knew before they asked Switzerland again to give up who they are, it would be rejected. Yet still asked officially and publicly to put pressure on and shame Switzerland for basically just being Switzerland. Germany is now threatening to stop buying arms and ammo from Switzerland entirely, while it was always a given logical obvious condition they couldn’t re-export it to active conflicts.

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With the primacy of logistics made obvious by this war, it may be in Germany’s interest to produce their own, unencumbered ammo.

cannabineer said:

With the primacy of logistics made obvious by this war, it may be in Germany’s interest to produce their own, unencumbered ammo.

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NATO should ban them it impedes operational security and denies strategic flexibility. What happens if everybody in NATO bought their ammo from them, and Vlad only attacked one country at a time, and they could not support it but must wait for their turn on the chopping block and go down like dominos. How about a situation like Ukraine where the Russians disguised an invasion as some kind of ethnic rescue? Sounds like a law made for a different time and situation, Europe has changed. After Ukraine, nobody is gonna buy their weapons systems, maybe license it to make elsewhere, but with no restrictions.

Looks to me like the Raduga company in Dubna near Moscow should be high on the Ukrainian drone strike list, knock out the factory and they basically stop the missile strikes, at least for this type. Choke off supplies too, but why not get to the root of the problem? Dropping a dozen drones with 100lbs of explosive each on it should slow them down a bit.

Republicans will need to investigate this too!

DIY-HP-LED said:

Time to change the law to reflect the new realities in Europe which is why there is discussion about joining NATO. They won't sell any future arms in Europe after this, and the law will kill their arms industry moving forward, though it is their choice to make.

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Discussion is already an overstatement. Some people suggested it. Only a small minority wants it, most do not. As their defense minister said, Nato membership is “not an option”.

DIY-HP-LED said:

I suppose the companies could always move to other countries though.

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Sure seems a lot more reasonable and likely. There’s in this context no new reality in Europe, that’s the whole reason they are neutral, Europe’s been at war since forever, it’s not made for different times, it’s permanent for all times because other nations will continue to war. Another war is the very moment neutrality applies, not a time to change the law.

Whether it’s good or bad Switzerland is neutral is debatable but to suggest they should end it now for this situation as if it‘s just some bureaucratic old law they can simply put aside is a waste of time that won’t help Ukraine. And again, it would only apply to future sales anyway. It’s simply too much to ask from Switzerland.

Sativied said:

Discussion is already an overstatement. Some people suggested it. Only a small minority wants it, most do not. As their defense minister said, Nato membership is “not an option”.


Sure seems a lot more reasonable and likely. There’s in this context no new reality in Europe, that’s the whole reason they are neutral, Europe’s been at war since forever, it’s not made for different times, it’s permanent for all times because other nations will continue to war. Another war is the very moment neutrality applies, not a time to change the law.

Whether it’s good or bad Switzerland is neutral is debatable but to suggest they should end it now for this situation as if it‘s just some bureaucratic old law they can simply put aside is a waste of time that won’t help Ukraine. And again, it would only apply to future sales anyway. It’s simply too much to ask from Switzerland.

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frankly, considering the sweetheart deals Switzerland gave highly-placed Germans eighty-some years ago, their de facto neutrality is debatable. That being said, they plainly stated the conditions they placed on the goods in current play.

Might it be argued that a truly neutral nation should not be exporting arms in the first place?

3000 police officers deployed in raids over plot to overthrow German government | DW News

601,965 views Dec 7, 2022
In a nationwide raid, 25 suspected members and supporters of a terrorist organization were arrested early Wednesday. Officials said the network, part of a wider right-wing movement, was already well established with a concrete plan to overthrow the German state by force and install a new government.

The raids were announced by Germany's federal prosecution agency and German Justice Minister Marco Buschmann. Buschmann said the investigations were directed against a suspected terrorist network with known ties to the Reichsbürger movement. He said that the raids had taken place on individuals suspected of planning an armed attack on state institutions.

The search operation is reported to have covered 130 properties belonging to 52 suspects in 11 German states. According to prosecution officials, the arrested suspects "belong to a terrorist organization founded by the end of November 2021 at the latest, which has set itself the goal of overcoming the existing state order in Germany and replacing it with its own form of state, which has already been worked out in outline." Of the 25 men and women arrested, 24 were from Germany and one suspected supporter is from Russia. One arrest took place in Austria and one in Italy. There are 27 other suspects, the federal prosecutor's office said.

Prosecutors identified the suspected ringleaders only as Heinrich XIII P. R. and Ruediger v. P., in line with German privacy rules. The news magazine Der Spiegel reported that the former was a well-known 71-year-old member of a minor German noble family, while the latter was a 69-year-old former paratrooper. According to prosecutors, Heinrich XIII P. R., who the group planned to install as the new leader of Germany, had made contact with Russian officials seeking to establish a new order in Germany once the Berlin government was overthrown. A Russian woman, Vitalia B, had allegedly given him help with this. A currently-serving soldier in the Bundeswehr's Special Forces Command (KSK) as well as several Bundeswehr reservists were also among suspects in the case, a spokesperson for Germany's Military Counterintelligence Service (MAD) told the DPA news agency. A search was carried out at the soldier's home and his barracks office in the state of Baden-Württemberg.

The group had targeted members of the Bundeswehr and police for their wanted to win their goals. It had formed a "military arm" and a council presided over by Heinrich XIII P. R. To implement their plans the group's members were prepared to use the use of military means and violence against state representatives as well as violence. According to the investigators, the members of the group "followed a conglomerate of conspiracy myths consisting of narratives of the so-called 'Reichsbürger' as well as QAnon ideology." The prosecutors added that the group's adherents believe Germany is ruled by a so-called "deep state," similar to baseless claims about the United States that were made by former President Donald Trump. The Reichsbürger movement is made up of a number of small organizations and individuals, mainly in the states of Brandenburg, Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania and Bavaria. They do not accept the legality of the Federal Republic of Germany or any of its government authorities. The movement argues that the German constitution prior to World War II was never properly nullified and that the formation of the former West Germany in 1949, and now reunified Germany, was therefore never valid.

Who's behind the plot to overthrow the german government | DW News

40,516 views Dec 7, 2022
In a nationwide raid, 25 suspected members and supporters of a terrorist organization were arrested early Wednesday. Officials said the network, part of a wider right-wing movement, was already well established with a concrete plan to overthrow the German state by force and install a new government.

Prosecutors identified the suspected ringleaders only as Heinrich XIII P. R. and Ruediger v. P., in line with German privacy rules. The news magazine Der Spiegel reported that the former was a well-known 71-year-old member of a minor German noble family, while the latter was a 69-year-old former paratrooper.
According to prosecutors, Heinrich XIII P. R., who the group planned to install as the new leader of Germany, had made contact with Russian officials seeking to establish a new order in Germany once the Berlin government was overthrown. A Russian woman, Vitalia B, had allegedly given him help with this. The Russian embassy in Berlin denied having links to far-right terror groups.
A currently-serving soldier in the Bundeswehr's Special Forces Command (KSK) as well as several Bundeswehr reservists are also among suspects in the case, a spokesperson for Germany's Military Counterintelligence Service (MAD) told the DPA news agency. A search was reported to have been carried out at the soldier's home and his barracks office in the state of Baden-Württemberg.
The trigger for the raids was an investigation into another Reichsbürger group that had planned to kidnap German Health Minister Karl Lauterbach.
German Interior Minister Nancy Faeser said the case revealed the threat posed by the Reichsbürger movement. The president of the German parliament's lower house, Bärbel Bas, said the operation shows "that our democratic constitutional state is attentive and capable of action."


The group had targeted members of the Bundeswehr and police for their wanted to win their goals. It had formed a "military arm" and a council presided over by Heinrich XIII P. R. To implement their plans the group's members were prepared to use military means and violence against state representatives and were willing to kill to achieve their goals. According to the investigators, the members of the group "followed a conglomerate of conspiracy myths consisting of narratives of the so-called 'Reichsbürger' as well as QAnon ideology." The prosecutors added that the group's adherents believe Germany is ruled by a so-called "deep state," similar to baseless claims about the United States that were made by former President Donald Trump. The Reichsbürger movement is made up of a number of small organizations and individuals, mainly in the states of Brandenburg, Mecklenburg-Western Pomerania and Bavaria. They do not accept the legality of the Federal Republic of Germany or any of its government authorities. The movement argues that the German constitution prior to World War II was never properly nullified and that the formation of the former West Germany in 1949, and now reunified Germany, was therefore never valid.

Fascism is doing far better in America than in Europe, if America did the same thing as Germany, there might be millions in jail! Ya would need a thousand Jacks.

Witch hunt

Herb & Suds said:

Witch hunt

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They got em all over, like cockroaches, lice, rats, parasites and Vermon, this is just the political kind! There are assholes everywhere and the news from Germany just proves the point. The Proud boys started in Canada but are on the domestic terrorist watch list here.

cannabineer said:

Might it be argued that a truly neutral nation should not be exporting arms in the first place?

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Sure, it might, but I think the focus on Switzerland exporting is not fruitful. NATO members importing from Switzerland is the mistake. Switzerland is no Ghandi, definitely no Jesus, it has armed neutrality and will shoot back when attacked. They have no problem with others doing that too. Just can't use the ammo they sold to a nation that wasn't in a conflict. It's not uncommon to place re-export conditions on arms and when you buy from Switzerland there is no mystery about this particular requirement. It's like going to a vegetarian restaurant and then bash them for not serving dead animal parts.

I don't think any mishaps in the past are a good reason to not be consequent now. The current documents laying out their neutrality are just decades old, and they had poll in 2021 where 96% chose to maintain neutral. They're working on a referendum to reinforce it in the constitution in 2024. I'm sure during and after this war the percentages will change, but a majority against neutrality is just so unlikely it's of no help to Ukrainians now.

How hard can it be to set up a production line elsewhere? Hard maybe, but probably not nearly as hard as trying to get the Swiss to budge. It's a matter of money, always, and now Germany wants more than it wanted to pay for. One more example and I see a pattern.

he had a point before they killed him

BudmanTX said:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1600384298426675201

he had a point before they killed him

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That's why we need to go all out cold war2 with spies and clandestine operations, Vlad will turn to this after he is defeated as his only way to fight back except online. We might as well inject a little shit into his empire and neighbors to keep him busy fighting for his fucking life at home, instead of being a pain in the ass to us. His army of privateer hackers and crooks has moved on and we need to monitor the countries they are in and start putting the screws to them when they crime, which they will. Ukraine would be the logical launch pad for these operations by many countries, the Ukrainian intelligence service can act as a fucking dating service for them and Vlad's many internal and neighboring enemies fighting in Ukraine. This war blew the doors off Vlad's empire and the spymaster has his pants down and his asshole in the sunshine.

Sanctions having 'devastating impact,' says former Russian minister

Russia FEARS Ukraine Now - Ukraine War Map Update 07/Dec/2022