abandonconflict
Well-Known Member
I was pointing out the inconsistency in the viewpoint that the gov't should exist to protect the interests of capital, but not labor.
Would you pay more in taxes to make college/university FREE?
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I was pointing out the inconsistency in the viewpoint that the gov't should exist to protect the interests of capital, but not labor.
fb360
Active Member
He seems to think hypocrisy and contradiction makes his argument intelligent
abandonconflict
Well-Known Member
You seem to think you're keeping up with this debate.
fb360
Active Member
It is not a debate lol.
You seem to think that some of the shit you spew results in a coherent argument, it doesn't
What is it abandon, are you for big government providing for you, or are you libertarian socialist? Your whole life is a big contradiction
abandonconflict
Well-Known Member
My arguments seem incoherent to you because you lack understanding. You demonstrated this by asking if I am pro-gov't or a "libertarian anarchist" which is not how I described myself.
Keep the ad hominems coming though, it is demonstrating how I am far more mature than you are, since all you have is to call me names.
fb360
Active Member
Really. I was the person who tried to put down someones opinions with pink lettering, and then only made opinionated assertions myself?
Naw, you are the hypocrite dog. You argued yourself out of this one
abandonconflict
Well-Known Member
I pointed out that your statements were opinions. Conversely, I have cited facts and even quoted the constitution.
The defense budget is almost $700B per year. This is a fact.
The cost to educate everyone for free has been estimated by the federal gov't at $70B.
Obviously, this is not a fact, but it is also not "my opinion".
echelon1k1
New Member
Governments SHOULD subsidise higher education and pay for trade's courses for it's citizens. This is what we have here in AUS and the end result only benefits the country on so many levels. I believe tertiary education should be free with governments only providing the cash - Curriculum oversight and guidance should be provided for by independent institutions
Military spending could use quite a large cut in the right areas and that cash should be redirected to education. Education goes such a long way today, especially a good one...
abandonconflict
Well-Known Member
Furthermore, education investments would create jobs.
echelon1k1
New Member
and that's only the white budget, add the black budget to that and you're in the TRILLIONS, per year...
kpmarine
Well-Known Member
You clearly state you oppose all government. Yet, you support certain allocations of government money; provided they suit your ideals of preventing the "wage slave" and promoting your definition of how every person should pursue their lives.
There are tons of jobs that exist because the average joe doesn't care to perform the service, or doesn't have the time to manufacture something for himself. The people who work for an hourly wage and provide me with these goods and services do not need a college degree to perform this job. Being free, intelligent, and capable of critical thinking is not impossible without a college education. Why do you need a college degree to achieve these three things? You imply that these cannot be attained through avenues other than a college education.
kpmarine
Well-Known Member
The cost to educate everyone for free to what level? Where did you get this info? I'm curious what the gov. estimated we could get for $70B. If it would genuinely be that cheap (Within reasonable variation from the estimate, of course.) to educate everyone of college age, I'd totally be on board. As an aside, it may not be your opinion, but it's not anybody else's either until it's proven that someone said it.
ilikecheetoes
Well-Known Member
if it costs 70bil today as soon as the govt started paying for it it would be 700b as well. Waste, fraud, abuse, cronyism(sp?). We'll have $100 pencils and notepads just like the pentagon.
If everyone goes to college and becomes a doctor who the hell is going to do my plumbing? Those guys get over $100/hour. How about my mechanic. Shop rate is $60/hr at most places. I'm an IT guy and college dropout with a GED. I bill out $120/hr. I dont consider myself a wage slave. I do have to exchange time for money but thats kind of what a job is.
Also once its free it means nothing. People dont take care of shit they dont pay for. Look at the projects. Give those lazy shitbags a brand new building and it will be a crack den in 3 weeks. You think they will really apply themselves to an edumacation? it was freee all the way up to college and they didnt do anything with it.
If everyone goes to college and becomes a doctor who the hell is going to do my plumbing? Those guys get over $100/hour. How about my mechanic. Shop rate is $60/hr at most places. I'm an IT guy and college dropout with a GED. I bill out $120/hr. I dont consider myself a wage slave. I do have to exchange time for money but thats kind of what a job is.
Also once its free it means nothing. People dont take care of shit they dont pay for. Look at the projects. Give those lazy shitbags a brand new building and it will be a crack den in 3 weeks. You think they will really apply themselves to an edumacation? it was freee all the way up to college and they didnt do anything with it.
abandonconflict
Well-Known Member
The cost to educate everyone for free to what level? Where did you get this info? I'm curious what the gov. estimated we could get for $70B. If it would genuinely be that cheap (Within reasonable variation from the estimate, of course.) to educate everyone of college age, I'd totally be on board. As an aside, it may not be your opinion, but it's not anybody else's either until it's proven that someone said it.
The article that I read before claimed this but I am pulling up "404 not found". This was the only estimate I could find that was not based on subsidizing loans. This supposedly came from FAFSA.
PEW research (claims to be nonpartisan but has links to left leaning journalism) says there is about a trillion in aggregate student loan debt. I don't see any reason why that would be incorrect, despite probable bias, as it is a verifiable claim. That is a different number, but your request is reasonable and I'm trying to satisfy it. This number gives an idea of the current burdens, which in my opinion are a form of indenture upon Americans (by lenders). Bear in mind that this is aggregate, not annual and it includes usury interest.
beardo
Well-Known Member
Jordans and Newports?
abandonconflict
Well-Known Member
fb360
Active Member
Even if a 4 year degree only cost the govt $10k/person, we would only be able to educate 7million individuals, out of 100million adults...
70billion/$10000 = 7million
Simple math.
Even if the govt allocated 700B to education for everyone, AND the 4 year degree ONLY cost $10k (going to cost at least 2x+ more), we would only be able to educate 70million...
So abandon, who gets to choose who gets educated? Is it only from here on out, but everyone has to pay for it? Is it only a certain age group, but everyone has to pay for it? Who is going to pay for the construction of all of these new institutions to hold everyone? Does that factor into tuition? So now were looking at ~$50k + per person, and a 70B budget... Have fun educating 1.4million individuals...
Do some basic math before you go spewing shit that a) is retarded b) not true
No they SHOULD NOT. You are talking about creating a govt which is already inherently TOO large.
Last time I checked, Australia wasn't going around making intellectual breakthroughs. Seems like the education system in AUS is lacking as well. Might be due to the fact that the govt is subsidizing it and consequently giving you a halfass education. The best schools in the world are all private schools which require out of pocket costs. Oh and PS: in 2006 your literacy level was ~ 50%. Well worth everyone paying for half of everyone to even become literate. Oh joy, bring on the idiotic, socialist taxes.
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/Lookup/4228.0main+features992011-2012
You do realize that you are promoting socialism by funding everyone education through taxation, correct?
No different than any other socialist program. Beyond that, educating everyone to the same level will result is dumbing down the population. It's proven that the vast majority of individuals are literally halfwits. So what is? Are you going to educate people at different levels, causing drama and social issues, or are you for dumbing down the population?
Doer
Well-Known Member
The main problems with all these theories, imo, is they sound good. But, if you just trace the known consquences it can't work. Then add in the history of the dark heart of man and the so called, "unintended consequence." All this "should" this and that, just ignore the fact of history. Waste. The boo-hoos that are sitting on their loans right now. Or sitting in class for a decade or more. Waste, fraud, chasing independent studies, everyone with elbow patches telling us all for free, the govt Manifesto? IAC, Indoctrination is all that occurs in college. Get over it.
fb360
Active Member
The problem is that these people living in Utopia-land advocating education paid for by the govt, have obviously NEVER been to a college.
I live 15min drive from, and attend daily, ASU. I would venture to say that out of the 60000 tempe on-campus students, MAYBE 10000 attend classes regularly, AND THEY ARE PAYING FOR THEM.
What the fuck do you think will happen when WE are paying for them to go to school? LOL. They are going to ditch class EVERYDAY, and spend their subsidized money on beer and drugs (which some already do)...
Advocating further taxation of hard working citizens for lazy ass college fucks is just about the worst idea I've ever heard. We might as well take 80% of those taxes and set them on fire. The money at least will go to providing heat then.
I live 15min drive from, and attend daily, ASU. I would venture to say that out of the 60000 tempe on-campus students, MAYBE 10000 attend classes regularly, AND THEY ARE PAYING FOR THEM.
What the fuck do you think will happen when WE are paying for them to go to school? LOL. They are going to ditch class EVERYDAY, and spend their subsidized money on beer and drugs (which some already do)...
Advocating further taxation of hard working citizens for lazy ass college fucks is just about the worst idea I've ever heard. We might as well take 80% of those taxes and set them on fire. The money at least will go to providing heat then.
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