War

CANON_Grow

Well-Known Member
I think it's been a massive and terrible misadventure for the United States and NATO at every stage.
So you think the U.S. and NATO are wrong and should just stand back and watch Russia takeover Ukraine?

Did Russia do a bad thing by invading? The knee jerk political acceptable answer is, "of course!" but that conveniently fails to consider the situation from the Russian side-
So you suggest considering the Russian side to determine if it was wrong for them to invade Ukraine?

I think that a strategy of weakening Russia is not just a fool's errand but it makes no sense unless you're a confirmed American imperialist warmonger.
So if one believes that Russia does NOT have the right to invade any neighbouring country, they are a "confirmed American imperialist warmonger"?

I would not say you are a traitor, treason requires more than thoughts on a message board. You are allowed to be pro-Russia without worrying about being arrested or shown the window - one of the many benefits of living in a Western democracy instead of Russia.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Wait, he is giving the Russian narative, the same one given to the Russian people who can be arrested for holding up a blank sheet of paper? Russians who are lied to by their daily news?
And your point? That doesn't make him a traitor. The noise about blank paper in Russia is irrelevant.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Where did I say anyone with a different opinion is a traitor?

Did Russia do a bad thing by invading? The knee jerk political acceptable answer is, "of course!" but that conveniently fails to consider the situation from the Russian side- and that's another problem with American foreign policy; we don't give a shit about the people involved. If we did, we wouldn't be so comfortable seeing them die in such incredible numbers.

Now you forget about the Ukrainian people. If Mexico invaded the US and took over the bottom third of it would you not fight for your country? Do you think you should just have talks with them and give them Florida to California?

You do realize Russia invaded Georgia in the same way as it had in Ukraine? Same with the Chechen Republic.
I have not forgotten about the Ukrainian people at all; you've just chosen to ignore who put them in harm's way in the first place.

Your hysterical response assumes that history began on 2/22/22, the day of the invasion. It did not; in fact, this war has been raging since at least 2014 when US backed Nazis overthrew the country and preempted the election, where a pro Russian candidate was widely expected to win by a large margin.

The next thing the United States did was start shoveling heavy weapons into the hands of the Ukrainian military, who promptly used them to start shelling Ukrainian civilians in the Donbass. Yes, their own citizens! None of this is up for debate; it all happened.

Zelensky himself ran on a platform of Russian rapprochement and in fact didn't even speak Ukrainian himself! He was a Russian speaker. When he was elected, he was told by the Nazis in the military that he would be anti Russian or he would not live long. Again, these are matters of fact, not conjecture.

Soooooo back to the Mexico analogy; if Russia overthrew the Mexican government and started arming them for an invasion, how long do you think the United States would tolerate it?!

Russia will not lose in Ukraine; for them it is an existential fight. I said this, here, when it started. I'm not wrong today and I won't be wrong next year. The only options the West have are to negotiate peace or escalate towards WWIII.

Recently, noises were made about Poland entering the war to take Western Ukraine. That would be an invitation to a wider conflict leading directly to a general nuclear exchange because, and I'll say it again, Russia is not going to back down. It's on their doorstep.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
So you think the U.S. and NATO are wrong and should just stand back and watch Russia takeover Ukraine?


So you suggest considering the Russian side to determine if it was wrong for them to invade Ukraine?


So if one believes that Russia does NOT have the right to invade any neighbouring country, they are a "confirmed American imperialist warmonger"?

I would not say you are a traitor, treason requires more than thoughts on a message board. You are allowed to be pro-Russia without worrying about being arrested or shown the window - one of the many benefits of living in a Western democracy instead of Russia.
To the first point; what strange framing! It's totally fine for the United States to dictate who governs Ukraine, to arm them with heavy weapons and to encourage them to use those weapons to murder their own citizens? The United States has invaded many countries under a much thinner pretext of "peacekeeping" than Russia has in Ukraine. In short, it's cool for US but not for YOU?

To the second; yes, I do think it's legitimate to consider the interests of the neighbors. The better question is what business is it of the United States to be involved in the first place?

To the third; again, very interesting framing. You clearly and conveniently ignore the long history of American interference in the region, continuing escalation along with deliberate and repeated attempts to provoke Russia. Why is all of THAT so acceptable as to completely escape your notice?

And let's talk about American imperialism for a moment; clearly it's fine if the United States bombs and invades anybody it wants, right? Right? No limits in where or what excuses? Please.

Soooooo no one who speaks out against the benevolent West and its excesses need fear, huh? Let's ask Julian Assange about that.
 

printer

Well-Known Member
And your point? That doesn't make him a traitor. The noise about blank paper in Russia is irrelevant.
I thought I addressed this already, I have not called anyone a traitor, you are confused. And the blank sheet of paper is relevant to the Russian narrative. Which I am quite familiar with as I check out translations of Russian news sites every few days or daily if things heat up.
 

ttystikk

Well-Known Member

This is who America puts in charge of our foreign policy.

Why does this forum seem to think this is not just acceptable but desirable?

The United States is on the wrong side of the war in Ukraine- a war of its own making- just as it has been on the wrong side of every war since the end of WWII.
 

printer

Well-Known Member
I have not forgotten about the Ukrainian people at all; you've just chosen to ignore who put them in harm's way in the first place.
Putin.

Your hysterical response assumes that history began on 2/22/22, the day of the invasion. It did not; in fact, this war has been raging since at least 2014 when US backed Nazis overthrew the country and preempted the election, where a pro Russian candidate was widely expected to win by a large margin.
Nazis? The same ones that had a free and fair election right afterwards? The reason the Russian puppet got thrown out was his running on closer ties with the EU but when in office doing the opposite and getting closer to Russia.

The next thing the United States did was start shoveling heavy weapons into the hands of the Ukrainian military, who promptly used them to start shelling Ukrainian civilians in the Donbass. Yes, their own citizens! None of this is up for debate; it all happened.
Little Green Men. Igor Girkin, blowing up an airliner. Aww, heck, not worth the trouble.

Zelensky himself ran on a platform of Russian rapprochement and in fact didn't even speak Ukrainian himself! He was a Russian speaker. When he was elected, he was told by the Nazis in the military that he would be anti Russian or he would not live long. Again, these are matters of fact, not conjecture.

Soooooo back to the Mexico analogy; if Russia overthrew the Mexican government and started arming them for an invasion, how long do you think the United States would tolerate it?!

Russia will not lose in Ukraine; for them it is an existential fight. I said this, here, when it started. I'm not wrong today and I won't be wrong next year. The only options the West have are to negotiate peace or escalate towards WWIII.

Recently, noises were made about Poland entering the war to take Western Ukraine. That would be an invitation to a wider conflict leading directly to a general nuclear exchange because, and I'll say it again, Russia is not going to back down. It's on their doorstep.
Russian in Ukraine 2014, not Nato.

The Russian Who Claims Credit For Fanning The Flames In Ukraine
Last spring, eastern Ukraine was a struggling, rust-belt region of mines and metal works. Now it's a battle zone where armies face off with heavy weapons, and where nearly 5,000 people have died.

In Russia, one man claims to have touched off the conflagration, and he says he's proud of what he did. His name is Igor Girkin, and he has a knack for turning up in tumultuous places.

In this instance, Girkin made his appearance in April of last year, shortly after Ukraine's pro-Russian President Viktor Yanukovych was ousted after months of street protests.

Girkin arrived in the eastern city of Slovyansk, where a very different group of protesters were demonstrating against what they saw as a coup against Yanukovych in Kiev. Girkin says those protests might have peacefully fizzled out if he hadn't led a squad of armed men to seize government buildings and turned the situation into a violent confrontation.

He says he was acting in the best interests of Russia.

Girkin, 44, is a Russian citizen from Moscow and a former colonel in the Federal Security Service, or FSB. He prefers being called by a nickname he chose for himself — Strelkov, which is Russian for "shooter."

Analyst Boris Kagarlitsky says Girkin became an important figure in the separatist movement in eastern Ukraine because Kremlin planners didn't have a well-thought-out strategy for Russia's involvement there.

"They just wanted to control the situation," Kagarlitsky says, "especially when it dealt with people who were part of their own team, like Girkin, who definitely was sent to Ukraine by Russian Intelligence, and he doesn't deny that fact. And then, because of the lack of very clear ... plan, he started making decisions on his own."

Kagarlitsky, head of the Institute for Globalization Studies and Social Movements in Moscow, says Girkin's aim was to create a separatist region that would quickly be annexed by Russia, as Crimea had been just a few weeks earlier.

But Kagarlitsky believes Moscow just wanted to keep the region in turmoil, as a form of leverage against the Ukrainian government.

For his part, Girkin says he wanted to add the territory to Russia because he's devoted to the idea of restoring the czarist Russian Empire.

He told an interviewer on Gazeta TV, "I certainly consider myself a monarchist. Above all, I'm a patriot of the empire, though naturally I consider myself a patriot of the Russian people."

Looking To Be A 'Hero'
Girkin has a "very typical vision of a Russian monarchist from the 16th century," says Kagarlitsky. "What makes things a bit odd is that he is living in the 21st century."

"I think he's a very naive person," Kagarlitsky adds, "a man politically out of touch with reality, but at the same time, he's a very practical person in terms of things happening on the ground. It's a very interesting combination, and that's what makes him sometimes dangerous, both for Kiev and for Moscow."

Girkin's practical abilities led to some early military victories for the separatists.

He was named minister of defense in the self-declared Donetsk People's Republic.

Ukraine accused him of ordering the abduction, torture and murder of political opponents, and he was among the first separatist leaders to be sanctioned by the West.

Immediately after the shooting down of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 in July, Girkin made a post on a social media page suggesting that the separatists may have mistaken the plane for a Ukrainian military aircraft.

He boasted that separatists had just downed a military transport plane, and said, "We warned — do not fly in our skies."

Later, when it became apparent that the downed plane was a civilian jetliner, Girkin's posts were deleted.

In the summer, the separatist forces lost ground to an advancing Ukrainian army. Girkin pleaded for Russian help, but he was forced to abandon his headquarters in Slovyansk and retreat to Donetsk.

In mid-August, he was mysteriously dismissed as head of the separatist militia.

Girkin is now back in Moscow.

In media interviews, he has complained that Russia was too slow to send help to the separatists, but he insists that he is a loyal supporter of President Vladimir Putin.

Despite Girkin's popularity with nationalists, Boris Kagarlitsky says he doesn't think Girkin is a threat to Putin.

"I think he's really looking for the role of a hero, but not a politician," Kagarlitsky says. "He's not looking for power."
 

CANON_Grow

Well-Known Member
To the first point; what strange framing! It's totally fine for the United States to dictate who governs Ukraine, to arm them with heavy weapons and to encourage them to use those weapons to murder their own citizens? The United States has invaded many countries under a much thinner pretext of "peacekeeping" than Russia has in Ukraine. In short, it's cool for US but not for YOU?

To the second; yes, I do think it's legitimate to consider the interests of the neighbors. The better question is what business is it of the United States to be involved in the first place?

To the third; again, very interesting framing. You clearly and conveniently ignore the long history of American interference in the region, continuing escalation along with deliberate and repeated attempts to provoke Russia. Why is all of THAT so acceptable as to completely escape your notice?

And let's talk about American imperialism for a moment; clearly it's fine if the United States bombs and invades anybody it wants, right? Right? No limits in where or what excuses? Please.

Soooooo no one who speaks out against the benevolent West and its excesses need fear, huh? Let's ask Julian Assange about that.
Not really strange framing, it's not fine for the United States to dictate who governs Ukraine but neither is it fine for Russia to dictate it either.

If you think it's okay to consider the interests of the neighbours, you can't really have an issue with NATO being involved. You speak about the involvement of the United States but seem to ignore the rest of the countries supplying aid to Ukraine.
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This is not the U.S. vs Russia. Russia invaded Ukraine, and Russia could end the fighting today if Putin chose to. There is no other country that can do that.

Trying to draw a parallel between what Julian Assange did and having the ability to speak out against the government is dishonest at best.
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member

This is who America puts in charge of our foreign policy.

Why does this forum seem to think this is not just acceptable but desirable?

The United States is on the wrong side of the war in Ukraine- a war of its own making- just as it has been on the wrong side of every war since the end of WWII.
Supplying arms to a country defending itself from becoming a colony Russia and Russian genocide is not warmongering.
 

cannabineer

Ursus marijanus
If there is any truth to this, then Johnstone is another of Putin’s useful idiots.


Counterpunch gets a B on fact.

 

CANON_Grow

Well-Known Member

This is who America puts in charge of our foreign policy.

Why does this forum seem to think this is not just acceptable but desirable?

The United States is on the wrong side of the war in Ukraine- a war of its own making- just as it has been on the wrong side of every war since the end of WWII.
I'm not trying to be an ass, but there is context needed on that source.

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Fogdog

Well-Known Member
the US government hardly ever makes mistakes and pulls out of wars they started and send Julian Assange to gitmo how dare he think its in the public interest to know the truth
The thing with these complaints against the US, like yours and like @ttystikk 's is, this time we haven't invaded anybody. Putin ordered the invasion of Ukraine. Twice. We have no troops in Ukraine or Russia. We aren't pulling triggers, dropping bombs, driving tanks or conducting widespread arrests. We are abiding by agreements and treaties that we have made. We aren't repeating the same actions that I agree the US should not have done in other recent US military adventures. So, what exactly is the complaint being made here?

The only real complaint I've heard regarding our helping Ukraine defend itself is from the military dictator who ordered Russia to invade Ukraine and found that he was unprepared for the determination of Ukraine to resist Russian occupation. For good reason too. Russia has a particularly nasty history of genocidal and other acts against humanity when they invaded Ukraine in the past and according to reliable sources are doing the same now. Everything the US has done in this conflict has been legal and supported Ukraine to defend itself from an illegal invasion.
 
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bursto

Well-Known Member
The thing with these complaints against the US, like yours and like @ttystikk 's is, this time we haven't invaded anybody. Putin ordered the invasion of Ukraine. Twice. We have no troops in Ukraine or Russia. We aren't pulling triggers, dropping bombs, driving tanks or conducting widespread arrests. We are abiding by agreements and treaties that we have made. We aren't repeating the same actions that I agree the US should not have done in other recent US military adventures. So, what exactly is the complaint being made here?

The only real complaint I've heard regarding our helping Ukraine defend itself is from the military dictator who ordered Russia to invade Ukraine and found that he was unprepared for the determination of Ukraine to resist Russian occupation. For good reason too. Russia has a particularly nasty history of genocidal and other acts against humanity when they invaded Ukraine in the past and according to reliable sources are doing the same now. Everything the US has done in this conflict has been legal and supported Ukraine to defend itself from an illegal invasion.
i wasnt talking about the current situation more a look previous battles, and im in no way suggesting Russia is doing the right thing

julian Assange has suffered enough, yall need to forget about it, or send him for some waterboarding, i know which one is the right choice

look at the docs your own president leaked
 
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Fogdog

Well-Known Member
I'm not trying to be an ass, but there is context needed on that source.

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lol

You beat me to it. Moon of Alabama. LOL
 

Fogdog

Well-Known Member
i wasnt talking about the current situation more a look previous battles, and im in no way suggesting Russia is doing the right thing

julian Assange has suffered enough, yall need to forget about it, or send him for some waterboarding, i know which one is the right choice

look at the docs your own president leaked
What suffering has Assange felt at the hands of the US? He's been living the life of Riley, most of the time as a guest of some embassy at his request.

UK courts agree with the US that he should be extradited, charged and given a fair trial.

" The Home Office stressed at the time that the UK courts have not found his extradition to be incompatible with his human rights.

“The UK courts have not found that it would be oppressive, unjust or an abuse of process to extradite Mr. Assange. Nor have they found that extradition would be incompatible with his human rights, including his right to a fair trial and to freedom of expression, and that whilst in the US he will be treated appropriately, including in relation to his health,” it said in a statement announcing the order almost a year ago."


If he's as innocent as he and some other people say, he will walk away a free man. If he's not innocent then all he did was delay the day when he can walk away after serving his sentence. Do the crime, do the time.

If you want me to look at some docs that my "own president leaked", you'll need to send me a link because I have no idea what you are talking about.
 
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