A Newb Grow Journal

[drgreentm]

Hey Hellraizer. Those H&M units look really great. You seem to have a good grasp on things. Just a couple points I thought off.

You are going to need to be carful how you bring the chiller lines into your room. 50 degree water will be below dew point and will create a ton of condensation on them. My chiller has dual reservoirs and pumps. One reservoir is kept at 45 degrees for my air handlers which are fed from lines that run along the outside of the building and then through the walls directly into the back of the air handlers. The other reservoir is kept at 60 degrees and that runs through the manifold line that feeds the water cooled equipment (dehumidifier, Co2, nute reservoirs, etc..) that is in the grow room. With air handlers or large heat exchangers you really need to keep the reservoir for that unit 10-15 degrees below ambient temperatures to cool your room and help the heat exchanger run more efficient. If you are running a smaller load like nuglets then that obviously can be warmer. Since nuglets is cooling EVERYTHING in his room that creates heat with water he only needs that Ice Boc heat exchanger to cool the ambient room air. Snce he has an 8x8x7 tent he's only trying to cool 448 square feet which only requires 2,500btu of cooling capacity. Maybe a little more because of the climate where he lives. I don't know your exact situation but if you are trying to cool a larger area or have a 2+ ton heat exchanger then I would recommend getting either 2 reservoirs for your chiller or looking into another method to cool your nutrient reservoir.

You need to size your chiller accrding to your cooling needs. So if you need 3 tons of cooling for your air handler and you just want to cool your nutrient reservoirs also you are going to need a 3 ton chiller. Most commercial chillers over 2hp have internal reservoirs and pumps. If you are chilling less than that with say a 2hp chiller like nuglets then you will have a seperate reservoir like you stated. I just wanted to mention that cause I wasn't sure how big of a heat exchanger you were getting and I saw some of those H&M ones were 3 and 4 tons. If you under size the chiller in comparison to the heat exchanger then it's really not going to run efficiently. Your chiller will constantly run and if the sizing is not right then it may not even be able to keep the reservoir cold enough for the heat exchanger to do it's job.

If your chiller does not have an internal pump and reservoir I highly recommend that you get a good cast iron pump. They have multiple ports so that you don't need to run 1 pump for your chiller, another for your heat exchanger, and a third pump for your nutrient reservoir. Also, water flow with these heat exchangers is a critical element. Most pumps cannot handle the load required by heat exchangers; especilly when required to lift (push) the water 5-10' up to the heat exchanger. If the pressure is not there then the heat exchanger will not work properly. For your application look into a 1/2hp unit ($100). Flotec is really good and that's what I have always used but I know Durman and a few other companies make great units as well.

Hope this helps. Let me know if you need anything else.

man Phil awesome info, you got this water cooling down to a science for sure. I had done a bit of research on liquid cooling a while back when I built my 10x10 sealed room, wanted to liquid cool it and co2 enrich it now I'm stuck with this tent lol. Definetly going to have to be reading allot of your posts

 

[phillipchristian]

man Phil awesome info, you got this water cooling down to a science for sure. I had done a bit of research on liquid cooling a while back when I built my 10x10 sealed room, wanted to liquid cool it and co2 enrich it now I'm stuck with this tent lol. Definetly going to have to be reading allot of your posts

Thanks man. Years of research and practical application. I am a tinkerer (is that a word?). I love just getting in there and building things and testing stuff out. The whole water cooling thing just fascinated me one day and the more I got into it the more I realized how efficient it was. That whole thing with ducting your lights back to your a/c was an idea I came up with 2 years ago.

You hellraizer. Also, look in my Water Cooled thread. There is a recent post from a contributor that is getting really great 1/2" and 3/4" stainless steel nutrient reservoir coils from brewery suppliers for half the price that Hydro Innovations is selling them for. They are better contruction and have like 4 times as many rings. The thing with the reservoirs is that your chiller will freeze them if you just let water flow straight through the coils. You can just add a t-ball valve on the beginning of it to regulate flow. Play with it a little and you'll find the sweetspot. Usually it's around 20-25% open and your res stays at 62-66. Depends on your res temp too though. Like I said, mine is at 60 but it also runs through the manifold quite a distance. If you have to run your lines long distances, especially through your grow room, then look into an insulation called elastomeric rubber insulation. It's used for refrigerant lines and isn't too expensive. I originally got it because the run from my chiller to one of my 5ton a/c's was pretty far and on the outside of my building in direct sunlight. I had that cheap foam stuff on all my lines and it started degrading outside after 4 months in the sun and the inside stuff started to go after about 8 months. I've had this stuff on all my lines for about 16 months and it still looks brand new. Also holds the temps in my lines a lot better. I was getting a 11 degree temperature increase on my manifold line with that cheap foam insulation before I installed the elastomeric. Now it's only 3 degrees.

 

[F A B]

wow it is crazy on here tonight is it a full moon
can i rest here for a minute and catch my breath

 

[way2muchweed]

What I meant by "risk" was the water itself. Chance of one system flooding or leaking (I use CAP Ebb and Grow 12 buckets) is enough for me.

 

[hellraizer30]

Thanks phillip for the info

 

[scroglodyte]

the clones look terrific. your success rates will improve. i'm trialing 50/50 perlite/EWC as a cloning medium, as one of these young fellas does. i forget who it was. i'll let ya know results.
that pesky fungus........hmm. i'm surprised it has taken such hold. in soil, there are limits....competitors. a mycelium will rear its ugly head, and disappear. there must be a way to dessicate it in that moist environment. a hair dryer, maybe......lol. i'll burn a bowl on it, and ask the spirits for an answer.

 

[hellraizer30]

Hey phillip this is the one im looking at
http://www.heatexchanger.ca/cooling

3 Fans 3 Coils LPB159 35,000 6.3 14 x 69 x 16 2640 10 100

You think if i ran the res tanks on a different chiller

And ran this exchanger on 55gal with a 1/2hp chiller would that be enough?

 

[scroglodyte]

i wonder if the bugs in mosquito dunks are fungicidal, or at least compete................*re-lights bowl*

 

[phillipchristian]

Hey phillip this is the one im looking at
http://www.heatexchanger.ca/cooling

3 Fans 3 Coils LPB159 35,000 6.3 14 x 69 x 16 2640 10 100

You think if i ran the res tanks on a different chiller

And ran this exchanger on 55gal with a 1/2hp chiller would that be enough?

Hey Hellraizer. A 1/2hp chiller is essentially a 1/2 ton chiller. I have a 12hp chiller with 2 5ton air handlers and a manifold line. If you size a 1/2hp chiller with a 3 ton air handler then the chiller will not be able to remove enough heat from the reservoir quick enough and your reservoir will overheat very fast. It's an inverted ratio between the two. If you are buying a 3 ton air handler/heat exchanger then you obvioulsy need to remove 3 tons of heat from your room. In order to do this you need to remove that 3 tons of heat that is transferred from the room to your reservoir. A 1/2hp chiller just own't do that. Look at nuglets setup. He has a 2hp chiller and is removing 2 tons of heat from his room (3 1000w lights = 12,000btu / 2 tents = 5,000btu / 2 Co2 Generators = 2,500btu / 100 pints of Dehumidifiers = 3,000btu) or 22,500btu. In some situations you may be able to slightly undersize your chiller in comparison to your heat exchanger (if you could keep the chiller reservoir in a cooler area; if you didn't really need the full 3 tons of cooling) but for the most part they need to be adequately sized. This is why you see the larger commercial chiller with smaller reservoirs. My 12hp chiller has 2 reservoirsand both are only 25 gallons. If sized appropriately you only need a small reservoir. Having a larger reservoir in your situation will actually only hurt the cause. The water returning from your heat exchanger will cause reservoir temps to rise faster than your chiller will be able to cool it. Then when the water in the reservoir is not cold enough to remove sufficient heat from your room your heat exchanger will have to work more. Eventually your reservoir will overheat and you heat exchnager will not function. There are a couple options that you have but they all require you purchasing a larger chiller.

 

[hellraizer30]

Just curius phillip but where does it say what size ton on that heat exchanger i listed!

 

[phillipchristian]

Just curius phillip but where does it say what size ton on that heat exchanger i listed!

You had it in your description and it says it on the website. 35,000btu. 1 ton is 12,000btu. For some reason they rate chillers by horse power but it is the same equation. 1hp = 1 ton = 12,000btu. The guys at Chillking and Hydro innovations are actually going to start changing their chiller ratings to btu or tons. At least that's what they told me.

 

[hellraizer30]

Whats a good 3 ton chiller?

 

[phillipchristian]

That's the thing..for grow setups it's really only Chillking when you get to that size. You can check them out on www.chillking.com or www.hydroinnovations.com The Hydro Innovations site has cool videos an more info. I've looked at other chiller but they all reguire modifications to work in a grow environment and those mods actually void the warranty. I am no expert because I found Chillking after researching a lot and I think they are the best. I haven't really looked at many since then. You might be able to find a few others.

Depending on where you live there are several different options at 3 tons. You can get the commercial units; compressorless units; and a unit where the condensor and compressor are seperate.

Let me know if you have any questions or want me to put you in contact with my distributor.

 

[hellraizer30]

Hey phillip would a 3ton ac unit be better cause im looking at this like, 3 ton heat exchanger 6.4 amps
3 ton chiller im guessing 8 to 10 amps and then im looking at a dehum! Seem alot

 

[phillipchristian]

Probably. There are huge advantages to chillers like being able to have a sealed environment; being able to control the temps and exhaust of other equipment; etc... The one draw back in the hydro world is the setup costs. I can tell you this; you will save about about half as much in electricity with a chiller so over time it is more efficient. It runs a lot less then an a/c will. In your situation you would need a 3ton chiller and a 3ton air handler. You are looking at $5500-$6500 if you do both from Chillking. I don't know how much that heat exchanger from H&M costs. At 240v a 3ton Chillking unit pulls 16amps when the compressor is working. A 3 ton minisplit will pull around 19-20amps on 240v and work twice as much. I'm not sure about that H&M unit but the Chillking Air Handler actually can dehumidify without cooling which is something an a/c can't do. So during dark cycle when your a/c isn't working as much you would need a dehumidifier in the room. That H&M unit might do the same thing. Not sure though. You're probably looking at $2500-$3000 for a 3ton mini split plus installation. Those chillers are plug and play. So easy to connect. Plus you wouldn't need the dehu anymore. If you want you can PM me and I can draw up a spec sheet just based on your lights and room size if you don't want that info on the forum. You might not even need that much cooling. Since they work more efficiently you don't need to oversize them as much as a/c units.

 

[hellraizer30]

Kk il pm you bro

 

[nuglets]

What I meant by "risk" was the water itself. Chance of one system flooding or leaking (I use CAP Ebb and Grow 12 buckets) is enough for me.

if you use the cap system too you know it's pretty hard to flood those things. especially if you make sure you grow buckets are above you controller bucket and all of your fittings are tight. the pumps they use don't create enough pressure to blow any leaks in the system. worse come to worse i wake up with 55 gallons of nutrient water in my tent. hook up a pump, suck it out, clean it up with towels. can't be that bad.

as for the water chilling that is actually a very well plumbed system. are you worried about your house flooding from the water lines running to your bathrooms and kitchen? that is about how much i worry about that chiller system flooding. all of the connections and plumbing is up to grade with what you would see in a house.

 

[nuglets]

hey guys. lot of stuff going on here since i been gone. lol

back with a small update and some issues with my clones.

moms are all looking great. pots are drying out and the cheese plants seems to be doing really well again. it seems to me like they don't like as much water. they are a lot smaller. i will probably water in the next day or two so i am going to give them less then i did last time and see how they do.




now is where the problems start. when i went into the tent today i found that most of the clones were struggling. drooping leaves and some yellowing. yesterday i watered them so i think it might be overwatering. i also opened up the vents halfway on the humidity dome again and last time i did that they started drooping as well. so, i shut off 2 of the 4 t5 lights again and closed the dome completely. going to wait and see how they look tomorrow. i think the low humidity and overwatering may be the cause but i'd like to know what you guys think. all of the rockwool cubes are still moist from yesterday.

 

[scroglodyte]

good call......low humidity is the culprit, imo. the yellowing is from drawing on stored nutes in fan leaves to hopefully put down roots, and preserve new growth.

 

[nuglets]

good call......low humidity is the culprit, imo. the yellowing is from drawing on stored nutes in fan leaves to hopefully put down roots, and preserve new growth.

thanks scrogs. i figured as much. i think those ports on top of the humidity dome just let everything out. plus with my room at 50-55% and the fan blowing in that direction it probably just dries them right out. i put a little water in the tray, sealed the dome, and turned the heat mat back on. gonna leave them like that for a few days and see how they do. hopefully they perk back up by tomorrow.