Canna Sylvan
Well-Known Member
Like how Amber Alerts protect us from partying with bottled water and glow sticks are somehow connected to abductions? Democrats like Joe Lieberman think so.
Florida Republicans fight to keep medical Marijuana off ballot
- Thread starter randybishop
- Start date
Like how Amber Alerts protect us from partying with bottled water and glow sticks are somehow connected to abductions? Democrats like Joe Lieberman think so.
canndo
Well-Known Member
I will speak to heroin. It is a benign substance. heroin users who take it in a medicaly pure form and ingest it in a safe way, live long lives. Overdoses are most often caused by street measurements and purities, circulatory problems are caused by unsanitary conditions and improper equipment. Shirking reponsabilityes? I know and have known a number of addicts who hold down very good jobs, but I can easily say the same for the constant pot smoker.
Theft? heroin is a very inexpensive drug, a dose costs under a dollar in places where it can be had in legal or semi-legal situations. No need to steal at all. What causes the theft is the black market and the tremendous price that market exerts upon users.
ginwilly
Well-Known Member
You are welcome to lock up someone for suicide if you want, personally, I see this a waste of time. Overdose is a medical issue, making it illegal to overdose seems silly even on the surface. Theft is already a crime last I checked. Shirking responsibilities? is it worse that I don't pay my child support because my new girlfriend needs boobs or because I need smack. How bout lottery tickets?
I'll say it again as simple as possible so you can understand. Our issues with narcotics are health related, the laws we have on the books are what produces the legal issues. I'll repeat what I said, i don't want to lock up anyone for victimless crimes. If crimes are committed against others in the pursuit of drugs, those crimes certainly can't be considered victimless can they?
Portugal decriminalized all drugs and are very pleased overall with the results. http://www.spiegel.de/international...tion-in-portugal-12-years-later-a-891060.html
Point to a circumstance where prohibition had positive outcomes. I just pointed out where decriminalization did.
The state/society has an interest in alcohol laws also, it is just so widely consumed and seen as ok that you cannot ban it in this country, we tried, it was absurd.
Enter marijuana. A drug used at much lower rates than alcohol, but users have been growing (no pun) and therefore the move to legalize it began.
So they come up with arguments. They have a "right" to cultivate and consume it. So what is the natural flow of this argument. The right rests on the principal of my body, I can choose what to put into it. That argument necessarily includes all drugs, heroin and crack among them.
For that very reason, that is not the argument you want to win with, as it will establish precedent that will eventually open the door to all substances. I'm fine with decriminalizing the possession of small amounts of these substances, but I don't see heroin dealers and crack dealers as committing victimless crimes; they perpetuate a misery that you cannot understand unless you've ever been an addict. I liken those who deal in these drugs to slave masters.
You want to win on the argument that there is no harm from marijuana, or at the very least it is considerably less harmful than other perfectly legal drugs.
Heroin and crack cannot survive this test.
Enter marijuana. A drug used at much lower rates than alcohol, but users have been growing (no pun) and therefore the move to legalize it began.
So they come up with arguments. They have a "right" to cultivate and consume it. So what is the natural flow of this argument. The right rests on the principal of my body, I can choose what to put into it. That argument necessarily includes all drugs, heroin and crack among them.
For that very reason, that is not the argument you want to win with, as it will establish precedent that will eventually open the door to all substances. I'm fine with decriminalizing the possession of small amounts of these substances, but I don't see heroin dealers and crack dealers as committing victimless crimes; they perpetuate a misery that you cannot understand unless you've ever been an addict. I liken those who deal in these drugs to slave masters.
You want to win on the argument that there is no harm from marijuana, or at the very least it is considerably less harmful than other perfectly legal drugs.
Heroin and crack cannot survive this test.
Only an idiot could read what I said and take it to mean I was equating marijuana to those substances.
What I was doing was equating the rights to use the substances, which are identical. You have none. You have no right to use alcohol in this country either, it is a privilege, that can be taken away from you, or denied to you outright.
ginwilly
Well-Known Member
My argument is based solely on prohibition, not whether we harm ourselves. By decriminalizing use or possession of narcotics, I would not be opposed to locking up the street dealer. I don't mj should be sold to anyone under 21 either as the brain is not fully developed at that age yet and there are conflicting reports as to permanent damage to an undeveloped age.
I'm not denying how awful heroin and crack are. I'm just against locking up the simple user for possession, THAT is the victimless crime I refer to.
If pot were legal, I would want selling pot to 6 year olds to remain legal, that's not what I'm talking about.
I didn't mean to imply I was dismissing how dangerous that crap is, I'm dismissing the thought that prohibition works, period. Each new law involving personal possession only creates more criminals. It's like the gun argument, ban guns and you will make criminals out of citizens that would otherwise not be criminals. I believe our prison system in this country would encourage prohibition, they are truly the only ones benefiting.
My argument that prohibition doesn't work and my question of can you name an instance where it did was was completely dismissed by you. Have you thought of any yet?
ChesusRice
Well-Known Member
Look to switzerland
As to your concerns about overdose
Unless you are flying a plane or driving a vehicle falling over and dropping dead arent very hazardous to people around you
joe macclennan
Well-Known Member
uh huh..sure. and I know of waaaay more addicts who cannot hold jobs...forget about it. yet almost everyone I know who likes mj ALL hold jobs.
If you are going to try and compare unemployment between an addict and a mj user you're out your mind.
Sure, there may be a few addicts who hold jobs but the smokers far outweigh them...and you know it.
lol...retaliate with names. good way to prove your point
I fully understand what you were trying to equate and the very notion is absurd.
This is like saying since owning guns is a right or knives for that matter, everyone should be allowed to own a tactical nuke too.
they're all weapons right?
this type of all or nothing approach to drug classification will never further the mj movement. Only an idiot would imply otherwise.
and that is why we are all here right? because we like pot?
UncleBuck
Well-Known Member
yeah, because heroin is just a victimless crime.
ask bignbushy's mom what she thinks about that notion next time she's looking for jewelry that isn't there or ask bignbushy's dad the next time he's looking for a power tool that isn't there.
hell, just ask kynes, who now has to pay extra to subsidize all the stealing bignbushy did from walmart to support his heroin habit, and then tell me it's a victimless crime.
ginwilly
Well-Known Member
Did the heroin steal the jewelry? Is theft for drug money currently legal? You are equating two completely separate things. If you have a victim you have a crime, until then we shouldn't lock people up. You can drink drano and not get locked up, you can feed drano to your kid or spouse and most definitely get locked up.
I'm against street sales, I'm against selling to minors, I'm against stealing to pay for it. I'm against locking people up for what they do to themselves. Got a tattoo and hepatitis at the same time? that'll be 10 to 20 sir.
ChesusRice
Well-Known Member
Heroin Like cocaine and Marijuana are cheap substances.
The black market make them expensive.
The black market make them expensive.
joe macclennan
Well-Known Member
not really if you think about the labor disparity. Have you ever seen how they make coke? Or heroin? Both are incredibly labor intensive. In fact if those people actually got paid a decent wage both products final price would probably be prohibitive for most.
MJ? not so much.
canndo
Well-Known Member
uh huh..sure. and I know of waaaay more addicts who cannot hold jobs...forget about it. yet almost everyone I know who likes mj ALL hold jobs.
If you are going to try and compare unemployment between an addict and a mj user you're out your mind.
Sure, there may be a few addicts who hold jobs but the smokers far outweigh them...and you know it.
lol...retaliate with names. good way to prove your point
I fully understand what you were trying to equate and the very notion is absurd.
This is like saying since owning guns is a right or knives for that matter, everyone should be allowed to own a tactical nuke too.
they're all weapons right?
this type of all or nothing approach to drug classification will never further the mj movement. Only an idiot would imply otherwise.
and that is why we are all here right? because we like pot?
So your measurment of "good" drugs vs "bad" drugs is social productivity? Some drugs are "good" and some are "bad"? why would we single out your drug and not mine? Why is your so special that it would get a pass where mine would not?
joe macclennan
Well-Known Member
did I say there were "good" or "bad" drugs????
No, you did. Keep putting words in my mouth.
someone said they were essentially the same.
They are unequivocally NOT!
their differences are too many to list.
and should absolutely not be classified together.
any rational human should know this. Maybe you should lay off the spike for a while and you'll figure it out......or not
it's your life
No, you did. Keep putting words in my mouth.
someone said they were essentially the same.
They are unequivocally NOT!
their differences are too many to list.
and should absolutely not be classified together.
any rational human should know this. Maybe you should lay off the spike for a while and you'll figure it out......or not
it's your life
kinetic
Well-Known Member
I guess my old friend who is a heroin addicted stole from me because there was no victim. I guess his inability to hold a job down has nothing to do with him being an addict. Other people he has stole from, nope, they're not victims either. Death from overdose leaves behind no grieving parents or family because they would be victims of the selfish act of suicide/overdose. Do tell me again how there are no victims of a heroin addiction.
Also tell me again how switzerland and portugal have nearly the population and culture of the U.S. Maybe we can compare apples and oranges while we are at it.
I'm all for education, prevention and treatment over incarceration of those afflicted with substance addictions like heroin and crack cocaine. I'm not for 18 year old kids having the ability to go buy a sack of horse or a bundle of crack from their local Walgreens.
Also tell me again how switzerland and portugal have nearly the population and culture of the U.S. Maybe we can compare apples and oranges while we are at it.
I'm all for education, prevention and treatment over incarceration of those afflicted with substance addictions like heroin and crack cocaine. I'm not for 18 year old kids having the ability to go buy a sack of horse or a bundle of crack from their local Walgreens.
canndo
Well-Known Member
False, the illegality of the entire proceedure keeps these substances locked in an ancient age of people in fields. Much of the opiates sold legitimately in America have as their base product, thebaine, which is harvested from the poppy. It is not labor intensive because they can use the same sort of harvesting equipment that is used for any other large crop. Fair trade coffee is about 9 bucks a pound and it is picked by hand, dried by hand and packed by hand. the same with tea. The chemical processes for reducing opium to heroin or coca to cocaine can be done in bulk for very little money.
canndo
Well-Known Member
They are drugs that when mismanaged can cause harm, just like pot. They are drugs that when used correctly can have a great benefit, just like pot. So where is this difference you speak of?
what about time, lights, nutes, seed?..grower does everything to produce it..one person!
canndo
Well-Known Member
Good drug bad drug, you didn't say it but you said it. How about X? Acid? Mushrooms? Khat? Kratom? Cacti? meth? steroids? where do these items fall in your philosophy?
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