Florida Republicans fight to keep medical Marijuana off ballot

kinetic said:
I guess my old friend who is a heroin addicted stole from me because there was no victim. I guess his inability to hold a job down has nothing to do with him being an addict. Other people he has stole from, nope, they're not victims either. Death from overdose leaves behind no grieving parents or family because they would be victims of the selfish act of suicide/overdose. Do tell me again how there are no victims of a heroin addiction.

Also tell me again how switzerland and portugal have nearly the population and culture of the U.S. Maybe we can compare apples and oranges while we are at it.

I'm all for education, prevention and treatment over incarceration of those afflicted with substance addictions like heroin and crack cocaine. I'm not for 18 year old kids having the ability to go buy a sack of horse or a bundle of crack from their local Walgreens.
Click to expand...


You have never had anyone steal pot from you? that would make you the victim wouldn't it? How about anyone stealing money from their mother's purse in order to pay for a couple of grams at 10 + per? Ever had a gun pointed at your face while it's owner demanded you hand over that lb of kush? Had plants ripped out of your back yard? are there any victims there?
 
joe macclennan said:
not really if you think about the labor disparity. Have you ever seen how they make coke? Or heroin? Both are incredibly labor intensive. In fact if those people actually got paid a decent wage both products final price would probably be prohibitive for most.

MJ? not so much.
Click to expand...

Opium production is easy for an addict

Coca is labor intensive only in the fact you would have to work to get to the coca feilds in south america

And yes I have seen videos on both.

And to answer your question

This is the answer as according to STRATFOR:

"...it takes somewhere between 450 and 600 kilograms of coca leaf to produce 1 kilogram of cocaine base, depending on the variety of coca plant used (some varieties have a higher cocaine alkaloid content). At $1.30 per kilogram, this means that it costs somewhere between $585 and $780 to purchase the coca leaf required to produce one kilogram of cocaine base. One kilogram of cocaine base can then be converted into roughly one kilogram of cocaine hydrochloride, which is commonly referred to as cocaine."
 
canndo said:
False, the illegality of the entire proceedure keeps these substances locked in an ancient age of people in fields. Much of the opiates sold legitimately in America have as their base product, thebaine, which is harvested from the poppy. It is not labor intensive because they can use the same sort of harvesting equipment that is used for any other large crop. Fair trade coffee is about 9 bucks a pound and it is picked by hand, dried by hand and packed by hand. the same with tea. The chemical processes for reducing opium to heroin or coca to cocaine can be done in bulk for very little money.
Click to expand...
hmmm, a link to this modern poppy harvesting equipment would be nice...or are you just talking out of your ass? Also to my knowledge the process of removing the resin from the stalk is all done by hand as well. It takes a deft touch I am told.
canndo said:
They are drugs that when mismanaged can cause harm, just like pot. They are drugs that when used correctly can have a great benefit, just like pot. So where is this difference you speak of?
Click to expand...
ummmm in the number of lives destroyed by each. Pretty simple really.
canndo said:
Good drug bad drug, you didn't say it but you said it. How about X? Acid? Mushrooms? Khat? Kratom? Cacti? meth? steroids? where do these items fall in your philosophy?
Click to expand...
none of which compare to mary jane.
ChesusRice said:
Opium production is easy for an addict

Coca is labor intensive only in the fact you would have to work to get to the coca feilds in south america

And yes I have seen videos on both.

And to answer your question

This is the answer as according to STRATFOR:

"...it takes somewhere between 450 and 600 kilograms of coca leaf to produce 1 kilogram of cocaine base, depending on the variety of coca plant used (some varieties have a higher cocaine alkaloid content). At $1.30 per kilogram, this means that it costs somewhere between $585 and $780 to purchase the coca leaf required to produce one kilogram of cocaine base. One kilogram of cocaine base can then be converted into roughly one kilogram of cocaine hydrochloride, which is commonly referred to as cocaine."
Click to expand...

right, and if the growers got paid wages commensurate with US levels... add on the process by which it is extracted at US wages and standards.


if it were not produced in the middle of the jungle by poverty stricken columbians the price would easily triple.

from start to finish these people are underpaid.
 
canndo said:
They are drugs that when mismanaged can cause harm, just like pot. They are drugs that when used correctly can have a great benefit, just like pot. So where is this difference you speak of?
Click to expand...

I'm with him that they should scheduled different even if my stance is decriminalization. We do it in the legal drug market too.
 
joe macclennan said:
hmmm, a link to this modern poppy harvesting equipment would be nice...or are you just talking out of your ass? Also to my knowledge the process of removing the resin from the stalk is all done by hand as well. It takes a deft touch I am told.

.
Click to expand...

[video=youtube;RbmyK4d-r8k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbmyK4d-r8k[/video]
 
joe macclennan said:
hmmm, a link to this modern poppy harvesting equipment would be nice...or are you just talking out of your ass? Also to my knowledge the process of removing the resin from the stalk is all done by hand as well. It takes a deft touch I am told.

ummmm in the number of lives destroyed by each. Pretty simple really.

none of which compare to mary jane.


right, and if the growers got paid wages commensurate with US levels... add on the process by which it is extracted at US wages and standards.


if it were not produced in the middle of the jungle by poverty stricken columbians the price would easily triple.

from start to finish these people are underpaid.
Click to expand...


First a patent, as I said most of the tons and tons of semisynthetic opioids consumed in the U.S. start with Thebaine, which is extracted from poppy straw from poppies bred to make large quantities. This chemical is the basis for most modern pain medicines.

http://www.google.com/patents/US20020106761

This may or can include morphine btw, and it is a simple step or two from morphine to heroin. And no, I rarely talk out of my ass. Some of the more esoteric and powerful opiates are completely synthisized. (and btw, with the right knife, it doesn't take all that deft a touch to score a poppy capsule, and it is even easier to pass by the second time to collect the congeiled latex.


Legal opium production is allowed under the United Nations Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs and other international drug treaties, subject to strict supervision by the law enforcement agencies of individual countries. The leading legal production method is the Gregory process, whereby the entire poppy, excluding roots and leaves, is mashed and stewed in dilute acid solutions. The alkaloids are then recovered via acid-base extraction and purified. This process was developed in the UK during World War II, when wartime shortages of many essential drugs encouraged innovation in pharmaceutical processing.

so it may well be you who are talking out of your ass. in the cases of ILLEGAL opium production, there is no "resin" nor is it commonly removed from the "stalk".

in short, there is a reason morphine and the other semisynthetics are so cheap - because they are handled just as any other mass crop like corn or soy.

Now I also was careful to mention FAIR TRADE labor intensive drug crops such as tea and coffee and gave you the aproximate prices. If you were to look carefully at the markup of cocaine from manufacture through transport (read smuggling) to distribution the increases are hundreds if not thousands of percent. EVEN if the farmer gathered his crop in an old fashioned way and were paid a decent living, the product would still be cheap. Cocaine is simply not that expensive when it is legal. Ask your eye doctor the next time you see him.




 
canndo said:
First a patent, as I said most of the tons and tons of semisynthetic opioids consumed in the U.S. start with Thebaine, which is extracted from poppy straw from poppies bred to make large quantities. This chemical is the basis for most modern pain medicines.

http://www.google.com/patents/US20020106761

This may or can include morphine btw, and it is a simple step or two from morphine to heroin. And no, I rarely talk out of my ass. Some of the more esoteric and powerful opiates are completely synthisized. (and btw, with the right knife, it doesn't take all that deft a touch to score a poppy capsule, and it is even easier to pass by the second time to collect the congeiled latex.


Legal opium production is allowed under the United Nations Single Convention on Narcotic Drugs and other international drug treaties, subject to strict supervision by the law enforcement agencies of individual countries. The leading legal production method is the Gregory process, whereby the entire poppy, excluding roots and leaves, is mashed and stewed in dilute acid solutions. The alkaloids are then recovered via acid-base extraction and purified. This process was developed in the UK during World War II, when wartime shortages of many essential drugs encouraged innovation in pharmaceutical processing.

so it may well be you who are talking out of your ass. in the cases of ILLEGAL opium production, there is no "resin" nor is it commonly removed from the "stalk".

in short, there is a reason morphine and the other semisynthetics are so cheap - because they are handled just as any other mass crop like corn or soy.

Now I also was careful to mention FAIR TRADE labor intensive drug crops such as tea and coffee and gave you the aproximate prices. If you were to look carefully at the markup of cocaine from manufacture through transport (read smuggling) to distribution the increases are hundreds if not thousands of percent. EVEN if the farmer gathered his crop in an old fashioned way and were paid a decent living, the product would still be cheap. Cocaine is simply not that expensive when it is legal. Ask your eye doctor the next time you see him.
Click to expand...

fair enough, good links there.

but, anyone who thinks that a product that needs "acid based extraction" or "pharmaceutical processing" To be made fit for human consumption even compares to the ease and safety of a simple plant that can be grown dried and consumed is nuts.

the difference between the two types of medication is huge.

more importantly the side effects of the two are even greater.

therefore the need for separate classifications are obvious.

apples and oranges bub
 
"ummmm in the number of lives destroyed by each. Pretty simple really."


That simple? tell that to those with chronic pain, tell that to the terminaly ill, tell that to the cancer victims, tell that to those with morphine pumps embedded in their chests. The "number of lives destroyed" by these drugs is dwarfed by those who are helped to live normal lives or helped to exit existence in a graceful and dignified manner, rather than screaming at the top of their lungs for days, or weeks, or months.

And you might wish to talk to those who have nasal or eye operations as well. Where little else will do as well as cocaine.

Drug elietists, nothing like one who's choice is pot, really. everything else "destroys lives" or is "unnatural". There are no bad drugs, only bad uses for them. Hell, even some of the most poisonous "natural" substances on earth have healing effects.
 
canndo said:
They are drugs that when mismanaged can cause harm, just like pot. They are drugs that when used correctly can have a great benefit, just like pot. So where is this difference you speak of?


ummmm in the number of lives destroyed by each. Pretty simple really.


That simple? tell that to those with chronic pain, tell that to the terminaly ill, tell that to the cancer victims, tell that to those with morphine pumps embedded in their chests. The "number of lives destroyed" by these drugs is dwarfed by those who are helped to live normal lives or helped to exit existence in a graceful and dignified manner, rather than screaming at the top of their lungs for days, or weeks, or months.

And you might wish to talk to those who have nasal or eye operations as well. Where little else will do as well as cocaine.

Drug elietists, nothing like one who's choice is pot, really. everything else "destroys lives" or is "unnatural". There are no bad drugs, only bad uses for them. Hell, even some of the most poisonous "natural" substances on earth have healing effects.
Click to expand...


lol, I know of quite a few in chronic pain. Most all of them hate opiates and how they destroy your body....try again.

and for petes sake...calling me a drug elitist. That's too much really. You have no idea who I am or what I have or still do.

I am a rational person(mostly) who can recognize the staggering difference between something as benign as marijuana and others less so.

and you are the one who keeps labeling things "good" or "bad". Seems you are the one with the problem.
 
canndo said:
We as a country do not have the forbearance to make potential illegal. We do not prohibit drinking just because we also drive. We prohibit the consumption of alcohol while driving or driving while under its influence. We do not prohibit firearms because they CAN be used in the comission of a crime, we penalize after the fact and make it known that we will do so. Society has an interest in many things, some outweigh individual rights, but the consumption of certain substances do not show the balance you state.
Click to expand...

Disenting opinion. Many states and most cities have de facto gun bans for stated reasons of public safety.
 
joe macclennan said:
fair enough, good links there.

but, anyone who thinks that a product that needs "acid based extraction" or "pharmaceutical processing" To be made fit for human consumption even compares to the ease and safety of a simple plant that can be grown dried and consumed is nuts.

the difference between the two types of medication is huge.

more importantly the side effects of the two are even greater.

therefore the need for separate classifications are obvious.

apples and oranges bub
Click to expand...


Firstly, fair enough is not "talking out of my ass".. Now is it.

Secondly, many of the things you eat and take are processed. What exactly is acid based extraction to you? Ever put sugar in your coffee or tea? How exactly do you think that is done? and the only reason they do what they do is exactly what our argument was about, that it means that the cost of the legal drug is low, far lower than you will find for pot in Colorado or Washington btw.

Ease and safety? really? you may be an outdoor farmer who uses all organic formulas but many are not, they use artificial lights, chemicals in the ground, foliar sprays and the like. Now the point you make is that the price should the illegal drugs we mentioned were to be made legal would be about the same seems to ignore what it takes to trim and cure your smoke. Beyond that, these items are now pharmeceutical grade, no mites, mold, spores, or foreign material, clean enough to be injected into veins time after time after time without difficulty. How much pharm grade pot have you ever managed to grow, let alone see?

But you skirted most of the issue. We can all call pot medicine but it is the poorest form, it cannot be dose measured, the effects cannot be predicted, in fact it is an unknown ratio of half a dozen or more differrent complex molecules. It may be "safe" in the fact that it does not kill, but that is not really the only measure of safety or efficacy now is it.

Again, tell the screaming heart patient about "side effects", or, if you want, give him a few hits of your favorite smoke and see if his pain goes away.

It won't.


I may also agree with separate classifications but that is not what I read, I read a certain superiority "my drug vs yours".
 
canndo said:
I may also agree with separate classifications but that is not what I read, I read a certain superiority "my drug vs yours".
Click to expand...
that's not the story you were selling earlier..It was that all drugs are equal.....they are not

therein lies the problem....YOUR problem
 
joe macclennan said:
lol, I know of quite a few in chronic pain. Most all of them hate opiates and how they destroy your body....try again.

and for petes sake...calling me a drug elitist. That's too much really. You have no idea who I am or what I have or still do.

I am a rational person(mostly) who can recognize the staggering difference between something as benign as marijuana and others less so.

and you are the one who keeps labeling things "good" or "bad". Seems you are the one with the problem.
Click to expand...


Chronic pain? Sure, some like pot, some like reduced amounts of opiates and pot, but most, when the going gets tough, will take that morphine or that fentanyl every single time. The cost to society is minimal. I have seen far more than my share of people dying in immense pain, and for anyone to have a problem with a comparative few "ruining their lives" such that they would deprive the others of even a hint of what it is they need to be comfortable is a sin. I hold the exact same feeling for pot but I encounter so many who champion the rights of the medicinal pot smoker while scowling at the opiate user (oh they can't stand what it does to their bodies, oh it is just big pharma trying to make a buck, oh it ruins lives) when pot is not a cure all, just one of a half way decent arsenal of different drugs. And I have seen pot ruin lives as well btw.


Nope, I don't know who you are, what I do know is that some of your first words to me were that I was "pulling something out of my ass". You don't know anything about me either but you managed that insulting phrase long before we got into any sort of discussion at all, now didn't you. I know where I am, I am on a pot site. I know the general consensus and I know the party line - pot = good, everything else bad to horrible. Pot = elixor of life and truth, Pot = natural. If this is not you, I appologize.
 
ginwilly said:
My argument is based solely on prohibition, not whether we harm ourselves. By decriminalizing use or possession of narcotics, I would not be opposed to locking up the street dealer. I don't mj should be sold to anyone under 21 either as the brain is not fully developed at that age yet and there are conflicting reports as to permanent damage to an undeveloped age.

I'm not denying how awful heroin and crack are. I'm just against locking up the simple user for possession, THAT is the victimless crime I refer to.

If pot were legal, I would want selling pot to 6 year olds to remain legal, that's not what I'm talking about.

I didn't mean to imply I was dismissing how dangerous that crap is, I'm dismissing the thought that prohibition works, period. Each new law involving personal possession only creates more criminals. It's like the gun argument, ban guns and you will make criminals out of citizens that would otherwise not be criminals. I believe our prison system in this country would encourage prohibition, they are truly the only ones benefiting.

My argument that prohibition doesn't work and my question of can you name an instance where it did was was completely dismissed by you. Have you thought of any yet?
Click to expand...

I did not wash over your point, I addressed it briefly in one sentence prior to you even making it. I said something to the effect of I am in favor of ending the prohibition against all substances.

The point I have been trying to make is only that if you argue that marijuana is your right then you need to be prepared to accept the full-scale legalization of all other drugs.

The only drug that drive damn near all of their users in to homelessness are heroin and alcohol. users of cocaine methanphetamines marijuana and pretty much every other drugs are fairly productive people and can hold down jobs.

The only point I'm trying to make is that if you argue you have a right to use marijuana, that argument can and will extend to every other drug. To people like you who are fine with ending prohibition that's not a big deal, but there are plenty of people who want to see just marijuana legalized, and the other drugs remain illegal.
 
BigNBushy said:
I did not wash over your point, I addressed it briefly in one sentence prior to you even making it. I said something to the effect of I am in favor of ending the prohibition against all substances.

The point I have been trying to make is only that if you argue that marijuana is your right then you need to be prepared to accept the full-scale legalization of all other drugs.

The only drug that drive damn near all of their users in to homelessness are heroin and alcohol. users of cocaine methanphetamines marijuana and pretty much every other drugs are fairly productive people and can hold down jobs.

The only point I'm trying to make is that if you argue you have a right to use marijuana, that argument can and will extend to every other drug. To people like you who are fine with ending prohibition that's not a big deal, but there are plenty of people who want to see just marijuana legalized, and the other drugs remain illegal.
Click to expand...

Fair enough, I think we were both arguing over each other instead of with each for the most part anyway. There was so much idiocy in this thread from both sides....

There was one person here who equates decriminalizing drugs with it will be legal to steal to pay for it. It's just hard to have a debate when the peanut gallery comes up with gems like that.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

jimihendrix1
Kentucky Governor Andy Beshear Signs Executive Medical Marijuana Order
Replies
9
Views
817
jimihendrix1
jimihendrix1
emepher
Progress on legalization of recreational marijuana
Replies
2
Views
1K
BFERG
BFERG
hanimmal
AP: Fraud claims aimed in part at keeping Trump base loyal.
17 18 19
Replies
371
Views
21K
hanimmal
hanimmal
Fogdog
The Oregon Republican Party. What can I say?
Replies
11
Views
721
schuylaar
S
hanimmal
Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson SCOTUS hearings.
10 11 12
Replies
237
Views
12K
canndo
canndo
Back
Top