giving defoliation during flower a try

Stompromper said:

I think the minute someone says "defoliation" everyone automatically assumes you are stripping your whole plant

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You don't have, but do bring up, a valid point there. I don't not assume defoliators are automatically referring to stripping the whole plant, on the contrary, I assume that if you take 3 defoliators they all mean something slightly different. And FYI: there have been quite a few defoliators who indeed claim less fans is more bud, how far people take that is rather irrelevant to me.

Removing a handful of leaves imo does not equal a supposed technique some promote for more harvest, that's just "removing a few leaves". Just as tying down a branch isn't LST, just as placing a net above a jungle and ending up with a jungle of bud sites isn't scrogging, just as giving only water isn't flushing a plant, and bending a few branches is not supercropping. Defoliation is presented as a means to increase the yields, which is just bad advice as it's always a situation that should have been avoided if max yield on a given space was the goal in the first place.

So, it's not like the defoliators agree on what defoliating actually entails in practice, so you can't use that as an argument against defolihaters.

Silky Shagsalot said:

no one is gonna change the other's mind.

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Which isn't the goal either. It's to prevent others (readers, future members and lurkers) from taking over the bad advice presented by defoliators. It's like a virus and just makes the mj grow community collectively a little more stupid.

Stompromper said:

Feel free to thumb through my galleries, most are start to finish..

https://www.opengrow.com/gallery/album/3425-ak47-og-pm/

https://www.opengrow.com/gallery/album/2306-musicianizeds-medical-mayhem/

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Dude... you are on the wrong side. A defoliator would have removed that fan of which its petiole... sorry, leaf stem, is in the center of the pic. I haven't checked all the pics but that's not like the skinny lanky stretchy defoliated crap skunkd0c referred to as well.



It's not a jungle either... that's actually not too bad bud site spacing. A tad too cramped perhaps, but I like it like that, and then if you feel better if you remove one of those fans on top blocking a bud site next to it... won't hurt the plant, won't increase your yield either.


Perhaps we should set a limit, removing 2 leaves per sqft is not defoliation and not even worth discussing

Stompromper said:

I get tired of him belittling everyone that doesn't agree with everything he says. We've going round and rou d this topic for years..

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I argue ONLY in favor of botany. That can not be refuted. After 40 years of horticulture you may understand.

"Airflow" is supposed to prop the defoliator's position - justification thingie. It's lame. If you need airflow then get off your happy butchering ass and buy a fan.

Sativied said:

So, it's not like the defoliators agree on what defoliating actually entails in practice, so you can't use that as an argument against defolihaters.

Which isn't the goal either. It's to prevent others (readers, future members and lurkers) from taking over the bad advice presented by defoliators. It's like a virus and just makes the mj grow community collectively a little more stupid.

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A well known member here and at Riddle just made a valid observation....didn't see how folks that hang at RIU could learn how to grow anything. Weeds are more forgiving I guess.

BDOGKush said:

I've used Agent Orange in my gardens with amazing results!

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Glyphosate is your friend. Literally, just got thru spraying 20 gallons of mix.

Uncle Ben said:

A well known member here and at Riddle just made a valid observation....didn't see how folks that hang at RIU could learn how to grow anything.

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To be fair it's not just RIU though, I started a journal at grasscity once, this was the very first reply:
"That ain't bad at all there man. The thing I would do is clear out some of those leaves to get light to more bud sites. It's still looking good though."

I also joined a defoliation discussion at icmag, same shit, same wide variety of invalid arguments. Refusing basic widely non-controversial botany because it's just science, but at the same time desperately trying to use irrelevant research to prove a point. Dutch grow forums... same shit.

Main difference at those other sites is that you need a certain amount of posts and status before you can call an asshole an asshole and a dumbass a dumbass without getting banned.

Uncle Ben said:

Weeds are more forgiving I guess.

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I was going to say don't get me started but before I typed that it was too late already

You kind of spoiled it for me, in a good way though, like spoiling the end of a bad movie saving me some time. Once you start learning "what makes a plant tick" it becomes apparent they grow themselves given a balanced environment (including root zone so water and nutes too). Trying to help it grow (like people referring to it as "my babies", using additives like they're geese, defoliating, etc) usually has an adverse effect. It's why I'm more interested in breeding than growing nowadays, breeding gives some of that control over the plant that some growers think they have. It's that perceived control from which so many mj growers derive self esteem*, making it hard to change their mind afterwards and admit the plants still produced bud despite all the things the grower did.

*Insert meme with Tom Hanks in Cast Away but instead of "fire" standing behind a huge cannabis plant proudly shouting "I created marijuana!"

Obviously the sig is already a tribute to that best advice ever, but thanks again. Best advice I can add to that is also what the wiki link in my sig is about, basically learn a little about what makes the human mind tick, learn about the most common fallacies, how to let go of a preference, of bias. I agree with the one, I think it was jackthc, who said I don't need to know the science behind everything, but I do want that bit of science that interests me to be the truth, the facts, to be actual science and not just my biassed interpretation.

I don't know about the folks in these forums but most growers I somewhat know through grow shops are uneducated and unemployed, growing mj is what pays their bills and puts food on the table, for years, hard to admit for them they're doing a lot of things all wrong. Once it's all legalized and we get large companies too, they can go back to welfare... I actually warned them about that in the dutch forums (in the context of ignoring science and basic botany), soon some kids from our widely respected agricultural university will be taking over their "jobs". At most they'll get hired to make cuttings or something else that requires manual labor.

/end rant.

CaretakerDad said:

My apologies, I should have mentioned to you that comprehension is also an important tool gained by reading. Good luck with your attitude and ideas, you will need it. I read a signature line that applies to you attributed to John Wayne. Allow me to paraphrase "Life is tough but it's a lot tougher for stupid people".

PS FYI you haven't had any idea what I and others have been talking about from the beginning.

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Uncle Ben said:

You can't interpolate well designed, tried and true training techniques in with defoliation. They are not similar in any manner.

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so if I have been so far off the topic and have no ideal what defoliation is why has it taken you weeks to tell me

defoliation doesn't work on every strain, removing too many leaves or removing them at the wrong time can result to skinny crappy plants
as I have always said it has to be done right, the problem is most growers get it wrong, some go over board and think they need to remove every leaf as they grow
some growers defoliation small plants in flower and it stunts the growth so it don't grow much in flower.

with most training techniques the risk is far less and its easy to do an idiot guide
like your topping thread, really basic but you still get noobs getting it wrong lol

This is a tread on defoliation, so if you don't agrea with it, why don't you make a few comments and leave
I not here to give you two attitude but I have been growing for a long time and want to put my points across and never had a problem with anyone else doing the same

I'm not on the wrong side.. I've seen the difference side by side from a plant that's thinned out to allow light to hit more bud sites vs a shaded up plant.. you can argue botany all day but you're wrong.

The buds that get direct light get bigger, greener and fatter than they would if left shaded. That's a fact.

Stompromper said:

I'm not on the wrong side.. I've seen the difference side by side from a plant that's thinned out to allow light to hit more bud sites vs a shaded up plant.. you can argue botany all day but you're wrong.

The buds that get direct light get bigger, greener and fatter than they would if left shaded. That's a fact.

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A typical response from the type of grower I was referring to in my rant. What you are basically saying is that it's fact because you say it's fact, in other words, it's your opinion and for you it doesn't matter it goes against the facts (botany and many people growing plants without defoliating and don't having the probs you have = facts). It has no basis other than your perception, and as they say, things aren't always what they seem. My buds don't get less big, less compact, less green or less fat, or less potent when some are left shaded, now THAT is a fact (there's no "would", I've tried it all).

If you'd argue like that, and consider such reasoning to be facts, you'd be fired on the spot in any professional setting. I don't mean that to be offending in any way.

Stompromper said:

I'm not on the wrong side.. I've seen the difference side by side from a plant that's thinned out to allow light to hit more bud sites vs a shaded up plant.. you can argue botany all day but you're wrong.

The buds that get direct light get bigger, greener and fatter than they would if left shaded. That's a fact.

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when you bend out branches horizontally, the individual buds on the branch will often sit upright and grow upwards towards the lights like little mini christmas trees
they look pretty when they do that

skunkd0c said:

i live in the UK too, the 9 plant count thing is something i have looked into
i try to grow fewer plants that yield more , i am always looking for something that yields well and fast but also taste right
if it does not taste right, i will not keep it

with some of the skunk/ sativa dom strains i could easy yield 10-16 oz per plant in a 11-12 week time frame
i do not think it matters too much, since the law on possession has not changed
if i had 9 plants that weigh over 100 oz of dried bud that is as bad as having many more plants
that weigh the same, although they do break it down into categories
9 plants or under is seen as personal use, but anything over 1kg or whatever it is
is not seen a personal use
i know what your saying though some plants grow perfectly well with leaves missing
they produce fat colas allover the plant, i removed a fair amount of leaves from this plant below
and it produced big colas allover it , it was slightly shaded by branches from the plant next to it
if it had been an indica,/ wide leaf hybrid or kush plant i would of not removed any leaves, because of issues i have had trying this in the past
not saying all indica will respond badly, i have seen enough of them grow back distorted to not risk it anymore

i have used lower lighting in the past
if this lower lighting if only on 1 side it will create fatter nugs down below, especially if the plant is bottom heavy anyway
but when these lower buds grow bigger they block and shade the inner section and opposite lower side of the plant
so lower light is needed all around the plant to make it grow evenly big on all sides

this was two seed haze hybrids at around 6 weeks 12/12 they grew like a jungle so i did remove lots of growth including leaves
i like to find a balance between keeping as many leaves as possible but also avoiding shading
i also tend to remove thinner growth / stringy inner side branches etc

peace

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hi skunkd0c

This is the first post on the thread that's giving me some useful info that I can use and its good to speak to someone in the uk
so you had a lot of luck removing fan leaves from skunk/ sativa dom strains and I can see the results from the pic's
will be giving that a go soon

(anything over 1kg)

got close but never pulled a kg with 2 x 600w hps light so I have no worries there

often hear comments like this in the grow shop "I just pulled 20 oz's from 30 plants under a 600w
and have 30 more plants going in this week and they buy all this advanced nutes and boosters ect lol



lower light on all sides of the plants sounds good so what lights you using ?
as I was thinking about twin 4ft T5 Fluorescent daylight tubes, one on each side and a 600w hps as the main light
and making the flower room 5ft x 5ft, does it sound any good ?

you getting some amazing results by removing thinner growth / stringy inner side branches and a few fan leaves

nice one mate

Stompromper said:

Feel free to thumb through my galleries, most are start to finish..

https://www.opengrow.com/gallery/album/3425-ak47-og-pm/

https://www.opengrow.com/gallery/album/2306-musicianizeds-medical-mayhem/

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you have some good looking plants there fellow

Thanks mate
i would rather not remove any leaves because i like to grow with as little work as possible
anything that is extra work goes against my main objective which is to be a lazy cunt
but i do like to chop them into shape so they fit the space without too much overlapping
my plants tend to overgrow the space pretty quickly (seed plants)
i remove all the weaker growth and keep the thicker branches

on the bottom lighting thing i only ever did this a few times, the point i was making
is unless you put lights all around the bottom of the plant, it will still be shaded on the other sides
the bottom will get bigger, but this also depends on the genetics, if the plant didn't normally make large bottom colas
no matter how much light you put at the bottom it will not produce colas, the flower formation on branches is genetics
but if they do make large colas at the bottom the extra light will help to give more yield

i found having bottom lighting on only 1 side was annoying to the point the increased growth on this side
shaded the other sides
so some T5 all around the bottom would be a good idea if its a plant that makes large bottom colas
if it only makes smaller buds at the bottom i would not bother, or maybe even remove those branches anyway

if i had more floor space and no legal worries i would grow lots of small plants myself
it saves a lot when harvesting , harvesting big plants takes ages, more work than growing them

20 plants under a 600w, at 20 oz is possible i guess,
i normally get around 15-18 oz per 600w from 4-6 plants

sounds like a pretty good commercial run, many folk growing mainly commercially buy clones
so do not have any problem with numbers or keeping mothers having clones ready when needed etc
these skunk/cheese strains need virtually no veg time and they still get fairly big
they chop them down at 6-7 weeks commercially and only dry for 1 week
saving about 3 weeks per crop over the course of a year this adds up to another harvest or two

peace

skunkd0c said:

Thanks mate
i would rather not remove any leaves because i like to grow with as little work as possible
anything that is extra work goes against my main objective which is to be a lazy cunt
but i do like to chop them into shape so they fit the space without too much overlapping
my plants tend to overgrow the space pretty quickly (seed plants)
i remove all the weaker growth and keep the thicker branches

on the bottom lighting thing i only ever did this a few times, the point i was making
is unless you put lights all around the bottom of the plant, it will still be shaded on the other sides
the bottom will get bigger, but this also depends on the genetics, if the plant didn't normally make large bottom colas
no matter how much light you put at the bottom it will not produce colas, the flower formation on branches is genetics
but if they do make large colas at the bottom the extra light will help to give more yield

i found having bottom lighting on only 1 side was annoying to the point the increased growth on this side
shaded the other sides
so some T5 all around the bottom would be a good idea if its a plant that makes large bottom colas
if it only makes smaller buds at the bottom i would not bother, or maybe even remove those branches anyway

if i had more floor space and no legal worries i would grow lots of small plants myself
it saves a lot when harvesting , harvesting big plants takes ages, more work than growing them

20 plants under a 600w, at 20 oz is possible i guess,
i normally get around 15-18 oz per 600w from 4-6 plants

sounds like a pretty good commercial run, many folk growing mainly commercially buy clones
so do not have any problem with numbers or keeping mothers having clones ready when needed etc
these skunk/cheese strains need virtually no veg time and they still get fairly big
they chop them down at 6-7 weeks commercially and only dry for 1 week
saving about 3 weeks per crop over the course of a year this adds up to another harvest or two

peace

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on my current grow I have not removed any leaves in flower and the rooms full, some of the fan leaves are shading the buds but not too many so its all good
my plants grow really quick too, took some cuttings 24 days ago and they took 10 days to root and now the tallest plant is 6" and as I have weeks before it can be flowered I have to keep it short.
harvesting large bushy plants is one thing I don't look forward to, it takes me all night

will give side lights a go, thanks again

just saying what I have over heard a few times about growers growing a large number of plant and pulling a large yield and I do agree if the law was different that's the only way I would grow
but I would feel safer growing 6 plants under 2 x 600w hps and you would yield more as I often pull 10-14 oz's per 600w light, organic soil grow with bio buzz grow/bloom nutes

yeh my northern lights are good after 8 weeks in flower so I could pull 3 crops in 24 weeks and your sativa stain takes 11/12 weeks so that would make a big diffence
but should always be quality over quantity

no point growing 20 oz's of crap lol

Sativied said:

just as placing a net above a jungle and ending up with a jungle of bud sites isn't scrogging,

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totally agree!!! a screen does not a scrog make, lol...

jacksthc said:

on my current grow I have not removed any leaves in flower and the rooms full, some of the fan leaves are shading the buds but not too many so its all good
my plants grow really quick too, took some cuttings 24 days ago and they took 10 days to root and now the tallest plant is 6" and as I have weeks before it can be flowered I have to keep it short.
harvesting large bushy plants is one thing I don't look forward to, it takes me all night

will give side lights a go, thanks again

just saying what I have over heard a few times about growers growing a large number of plant and pulling a large yield and I do agree if the law was different that's the only way I would grow
but I would feel safer growing 6 plants under 2 x 600w hps and you would yield more as I often pull 10-14 oz's per 600w light, organic soil grow with bio buzz grow/bloom nutes

yeh my northern lights are good after 8 weeks in flower so I could pull 3 crops in 24 weeks and your sativa stain takes 11/12 weeks so that would make a big diffence
but should always be quality over quantity

no point growing 20 oz's of crap lol

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yeh i know what you mean, but the law on possession is the same
so if you have any dry bud + the weight of the plants
then cuttings waiting to replace the harvested plants
all goes against you

if you yield under 1kg or have less than this around you then you're laughing, under the current guidelines you can only get a slap on the wrist
you can have 9 plants its automatically personal with these smaller yields

but when those 9 plants are trees all 1lb each i do not think you will be getting a slap on the wrist lol
they will do you for the weight of the plants, still if you did not have previous
and obvious signs of "drug dealing wealth" they might still be lenient
its folk who are obviously making money out of it that get the harshest treatment

all the time you hear about old ladies growing 50 plants in the attic they get a slap on the wrist
because they have no previous criminal convictions no BMW with black windows and silly wheels

on my last run a bluecheese seed plant that vegged for 20 days and flowered for 65 days with sativa dominated structure it yielded just over 1lb
its sister next to it only yielded 4 oz in the same time frame, small indica structure

peace

It's a given Sativied. Cannabis growers are just a bunch of fuck ups.

1.Cannabis leaves do not 'block light'
2. There are very few photo receptors on the buds themselves
3. 'Shade' is what the human eyes sees
4. The leaves defuse light and filter out harmful radiation
5. Leaf production is the sign of a healthy plant, to remove causes the plant to divert resources to replenish.

Experiment: take two large fan leaves, place over eyes and look into the sun.

I didn't know where to ask this .... did I do it right ? I'm about 3 weeks into flower and its my first time .....

do i need to take the rest of the fans off as well ????

Sativied said:

Perhaps we should set a limit, removing 2 leaves per sqft is not defoliation and not even worth discussing

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isnt that just pruning