War

Roger A. Shrubber said:

i know this couldn't be done at the moment without it being a bad idea, but...can a non NATO member nation invite and host NATO emplacements and bases? we have military installments and bases over a large part of the world that we have no real binding agreements with, no paper beyond treaties...can NATO not do the same? place a few training bases, say one in Sarny, one in Chernihiv, one in Kharkiv? build a nice NATO airfield just north of Dnipro? maybe an artillery training base in Lubny?
just an idea...maybe a bad one, i don't know (literally...can this be done? what prevents it?)

Click to expand...

One implication of this war is if the Ukrainians can beat back the Russians they will be armed to the teeth, better than most NATO nations and will not fear Vlad, they will be eager to fuck him! They won't be a NATO nation and are not constrained by the "rules", not after this. They could even have bilateral agreements with America and America can sell them arms like anybody else. If they whip Vlad's ass, the CIA will be be most generous I can assure you and if it hasn't already fallen, Belarus will be the next domino to fall, another fire for Vlad to put out and explain to his people, while draining his treasury even faster. Georgia is gonna be much bolder now and antitank weapons and stingers will be pouring into that place too, we have NATO people training them there now and have been for awhile.

Negating much of Russia's combat power (tanks and tactical air) with modern weapons has changed things and created an equalizer of sorts. They can hold them, until we resupply them from prepositioned stocks and offer logistical support, quickly multiplying their combat power, if they are organized for it and have the population behind them.

Sativied said:

Because there are simply no laws/mechanisms on paper that facilitate such a vote. Even if there were, major issues like that, including introducing such mechanisms, require a decision by unanimity, so they can simply veto. The most we can do is ask them to trigger article 50 (what UK did), as in leave themselves. Democracy doesn't always mean decisions are made by 51%+ majority. As for hypocrisy, I mentioned west eu isn't perfect, not by any means. That's not a good reason to expand with members that are even worse, on the contrary.

Click to expand...

i know there are probably issues i am not aware of, but that seems like it was very bad planning on the EU's part...in the very beginning, it was only Belgium, France, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, and West Germany, in 1957...countries trickled in over the next 50 years, until ten joined at once in 2004...did it never occur to any member nations that with 28 members, someone was going to do things that the rest found unacceptable at some point? that some of the nations had been at war with each other in the recent past? that it might happen again?
i don't know exactly what you call a voting system that requires unanimity, but it isn't liberal democracy..."unattainable clusterfuck" comes to mind.

https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-kyiv-europe-chechnya-b1ce8f7db6408fc78e9204385b6dc754

nice to see the russians are unbiased equal opportunity murderers...

A senior Russian diplomat warned that Moscow could target foreign shipments of military equipment to Ukraine. Speaking Saturday, Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov said Moscow has warned the United States “that pumping weapons from a number of countries it orchestrates isn’t just a dangerous move, it’s an action that makes those convoys legitimate targets.”

Bring it on Sergei...target one convoy before it crosses Ukrain's borders....i fucking dare you.
i'm about tired of russia, and i'm about tired of wondering "what will china do?".... appeasement is just another way of saying "ass kissing", which gets old fast as fuck...it's time to shut putin the fuck down, permanently, and any of his cronies that tries to take up the mantle can get hung right beside putin

Roger A. Shrubber said:

i know there are probably issues i am not aware of, but that seems like it was very bad planning on the EU's part...in the very beginning, it was only Belgium, France, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, and West Germany, in 1957...countries trickled in over the next 50 years, until ten joined at once in 2004...did it never occur to any member nations that with 28 members, someone was going to do things that the rest found unacceptable at some point? that some of the nations had been at war with each other in the recent past? that it might happen again?
i don't know exactly what you call a voting system that requires unanimity, but it isn't liberal democracy..."unattainable clusterfuck" comes to mind.

Click to expand...

Like I said, it’s grown out to be an undemocratic monster and was never designed to be this large. And no, the EU is not a liberal democracy, it’s not a nation. We do however demand new members are, on paper anyway. They have some democratic processes and the EU parliament is a representative democracy sort of thing, but yeah now you’re getting it.

DIY-HP-LED said:

One implication of this war is if the Ukrainians can beat back the Russians they will be armed to the teeth, better than most NATO nations . . . . . .

Click to expand...

Arms get used up in war. If Ukraine manages to remove poot-poot from their country they will still be broken and broke. NATO will have all their arms.

Just a thought someone else had that I saw somewhere. It might be best for the rest of the world if poot-poot takes a year or longer to take Ukraine. And then eight or ten more as an occupying force. The longer he is there, the more damage is being done to his regime.

injinji said:

Arms get used up in war. If Ukraine manages to remove poot-poot from their country they will still be broken and broke. NATO will have all their arms.

Click to expand...

i tried to look up anything about what NATO will do about all the weapons they're giving Ukraine after the conflict, assuming that Ukrain wins...i couldn't find an answer one way or the other.
they would seem to be a gift to me, and it's quite rude to demand the return of a gift, but Ukraine could have made an agreement i'm not aware of to return unused ordinance after the conflict...either way, i see a lot of stuff going unaccounted for, and a lot of leftovers possibly getting into the hands of people who definitely shouldn't have it. there should at the very least be elevated observation of Ukraine after the war is over....if there is a Ukraine to observe after the war is over.

injinji said:

Just a thought someone else had that I saw somewhere. It might be best for the rest of the world if poot-poot takes a year or longer to take Ukraine. And then eight or ten more as an occupying force. The longer he is there, the more damage is being done to his regime.

Click to expand...

i have high hopes he won't survive the year, and equally high hopes that russia as we know it now won't survive much longer...
probably pipe dreams, but stranger things have happened

Roger A. Shrubber said:

i tried to look up anything about what NATO will do about all the weapons they're giving Ukraine after the conflict, assuming that Ukrain wins...i couldn't find an answer one way or the other.
they would seem to be a gift to me, and it's quite rude to demand the return of a gift, but Ukraine could have made an agreement i'm not aware of to return unused ordinance after the conflict...either way, i see a lot of stuff going unaccounted for, and a lot of leftovers possibly getting into the hands of people who definitely shouldn't have it. there should at the very least be elevated observation of Ukraine after the war is over....if there is a Ukraine to observe after the war is over.

Click to expand...

There is talk about a lend/lease program like we had with the USSR during WWII. It's really just a wink and a nod, but we would be lending them weapons, not giving them weapons.

injinji said:

Arms get used up in war. If Ukraine manages to remove poot-poot from their country they will still be broken and broke. NATO will have all their arms.

Click to expand...

Ukraine will be a strategic country and very important to America and the EU, America alone will want to keep it strong militarily. This is cold war 2 and a lot of cash get's dumped on places like Ukraine, they will have post war EU aid and favorable trade relations, seized Russian money (all of it) and America will dump a ton of cash on them to make Vlad look bad while people in Russia live like shit. Vlad will be flat broke in 30 to 50 days and cannot sustain this war effort. They have a big reserve force, but I don't think most of it is war worthy and he will be broke before he can mobilize it to any degree. If they managed to get there they would be slaughtered like sheep or surrender starving en mass.

I fought the NLAW, but the NLAW won!

ANC said:

I fought the NLAW, but the NLAW won!

Click to expand...

they have to think a little more tactically. they should have mined the field the tanks ran into to get off of the road, then they could have taken out at least three of them and many more of the men...there was really no where else for the tanks to go, it would have been a good investment of their time. the whole hillside they had to run down to get off of the road would have been a prime spot, a couple of heavy mines with a few anti personnel mines mixed in would have done a lot more damage...gotta think about this shit when you have limited resources, make each strike count for as much as you can

I think it was kinda opportunistic... like too good a chance to not take, I don't even think they thought they would get that many.
They will get better though.
You don't even need an NLAW to go through the lighter armour.
I've seen quite a few armor-piercing rounds made for the garden variety shotgun.

I think everybody knows the legend of the mighty red army from WW2 and the cold war, in WW2 the troops were motivated like Ukrainians are now! However nothing was surplus in the soviet union, worn out equipment was passed down to reserve units and never ended up getting refurbished. Corruption in Russia didn't start with Yeltsin, it was already there, freedom along with social chaos and economic collapse made it worse and endemic. Vlad just continued this tend over 20 years and it was worse a few years ago than it is now, less military gear is being sold on ebay by corrupt colonels. Embezzlement and pilfering is probably worse in the reserve forces with stuff not maintained and old men on the rolls of combat and support units (I saw some in the back of a truck) to supplement their pensions.

We are seeing the results of this corruption on preparedness, fighting effectiveness and moral, they are not even considered a professional army worthy of respect in many military circles now. They cannot operate like a modern military and have failed at every level on the most basic military things. The public knows every move they make or will make FFS, imagine what the intelligence people know. Now imagine how much this multiplies the Ukrainian combat power when you know exactly where the enemy will strike, when and exactly how many soldiers there are. The Russians will be running into a series of ambushes, every time they move forward and their flanks and rear logistics will be attacked relentlessly by soldiers waiting hidden until the combat spear passed by or who were infiltrated in with the help of locals. Also the Russians use ridged tactical doctrine that is not very flexible, while the Ukrainians use NATO tactical doctrine, much more flexible and depends much more on individual initiative of the troops, perfectly suited to the Ukrainians who have motivated troops. The numbers of those troops are growing weekly, as new classes graduate from accelerated training, mostly weapons and tactics training, they don't need 90 days of basic.

I think it was the first Call of Duty, the first time you play the Russians you start as a conscript that only got a few bullets but no gun, a gun had to be gotten off the corpse if you wanted one.

They just need to keep hitting the lead vehicle, and that army goes nowhere.

ANC said:

I think it was kinda opportunistic... like too good a chance to not take, I don't even think they thought they would get that many.
They will get better though.

Click to expand...

i'm sure they will, and i'll admit it's a lot easier to see things from my office chair...but i have spent a long, long time thinking about shit like that, looking at videos of real engagements, trying to perfect the placement of weapons and troops...i find myself sometimes planning out attacks in my head on local objectives, then trying to invent counters to my own invasion plans...it entertains me a lot more than collecting stamps.

Roger A. Shrubber said:

they have to think a little more tactically. they should have mined the field the tanks ran into to get off of the road, then they could have taken out at least three of them and many more of the men...there was really no where else for the tanks to go, it would have been a good investment of their time. the whole hillside they had to run down to get off of the road would have been a prime spot, a couple of heavy mines with a few anti personnel mines mixed in would have done a lot more damage...gotta think about this shit when you have limited resources, make each strike count for as much as you can

Click to expand...

Buying time, objective accomplished, attack stopped and they ran off with their tails between their legs. The main thing is to build combat power and forces for and overwhelming attack to quickly take them out at a strategic location. Every day they grow stronger and the Russians grow weaker, they only hold 10% of the country and the other 90% is preparing, training, organizing units and getting logistics. They have a bigger plan afoot than just holding on and will be on the offensive in a big smart way soon. They are advised by top retired and current NATO generals, really smart guys, Rommel's to a man who have unbelievably good intelligence about the enemy and the condition of this army, what do you think will happen in a few weeks at most?

Roger A. Shrubber said:

i'm sure they will, and i'll admit it's a lot easier to see things from my office chair...but i have spent a long, long time thinking about shit like that, looking at videos of real engagements, trying to perfect the placement of weapons and troops...i find myself sometimes planning out attacks in my head on local objectives, then trying to invent counters to my own invasion plans...it entertains me a lot more than collecting stamps.

Click to expand...

Planning is one thing, but you need to be wired and have some conditioning to stay cool when the big guns start firing in defense.
You got to act like you are already dead if you want to live.

DIY-HP-LED said:

Buying time, objective accomplished, attack stopped and they ran off with their tails between their legs. The main thing is to build combat power and forces for and overwhelming attack to quickly take them out at a strategic location. Every day they grow stronger and the Russians grow weaker, they only hold 10% of the country and the other 90% is preparing, training, organizing units and getting logistics. They have a bigger plan afoot than just holding on and will be on the offensive in a big smart way soon. They are advised by top retired and current NATO generals, really smart guys, Rommel's to a man who have unbelievably good intelligence about the enemy and the condition of this army, what do you think will happen in a few weeks at most?

Click to expand...

they took out one tank...then the others spread out and returned fire, and the video cut away. i didn't see any of them running out of the area.
from that video, i don't know if the Ukraines survived, or if they got killed by return fire. i don't know if the column was broken, or just momentarily disrupted. there were a lot more russian vehicles coming close behind those...a lot more...
they're going to have to do better than trading one for one, they don't have the man power to play that game against the russians.

Ya know, America could beam free programing and western Russian language news stations over Russian satellite TV dishes, there are millions in Russia and they can make so the don't need a key or anything or a subscription, just point any standard satellite TV dish at the sky and it will come in on the receiver. Russia isn't as air tight as it used to be, there are a million ways of getting news in including old fashioned radio. You don't need a majority of the population, just a fanatical minority will do.