Boycott China.

zeddd said:

It demonstrates that it was highly unlikely to be genetically engineered, it doesn’t conclusively blame wet markets. I’m with you about closing down such abominations but I’m not prepared to jump to conclusions.

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No such 100% conclusions ever really exist. The evidence is conclusive enough and we've known it for a very long time. We knew in 2007 that it was the bushmeat markets and that it would happen again there.
^^Read the introduction on this link from 07^^

Here's the Nature article again:

Theory should be taken as fact. This article is peer reviewed and it makes several such clear conclusions.

Our analyses clearly show that SARS-CoV-2 is not a laboratory construct or a purposefully manipulated virus.

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There are three scenarios offered, all of them operate on the conclusion that the virus was not manipulated or engineered, but arose from a zoonotic host.. Two of them assume introduction in the bushmeat market. What is unknown is whether it mutated in patient zero or if it mutated in another mammal host, such as a pangolin. We need patient zero for that, the CCP won't share that info.

Budley Doright said:

Are we still talking about the same article that I was told debate was over “period” lol.

“More scientific data could swing the balance of evidence to favor one hypothesis over another. Obtaining related viral sequences from animal sources would be the most definitive way of revealing viral origins. For example, a future observation of an intermediate or fully formed polybasic cleavage site in a SARS-CoV-2-like virus from animals would lend even further support to the natural-selection hypotheses”

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Yes and I linked it again. It is a fine debate. Let's continue it. There are three hypotheses, two of them assume the conclusion that the bushmeat market facilitated introduction to humans. The third, still concludes that it was not a product of genetic manipulation or engineering but a laboratory release from a sample taken from a zoonotic host.

It WAS NOT a bio-weapon. The CCP is absolutely, 100% to blame.

abandonconflict said:

No such 100% conclusions ever really exist. The evidence is conclusive enough and we've known it for a very long time. We knew in 2007 that it was the bushmeat markets and that it would happen again there.

https://cmr.asm.org/content/cmr/20/4/660.full.pdf

^^Read the introduction on this link from 07^^

Here's the Nature article again:

The proximal origin of SARS-CoV-2 - Nature Medicine

www.nature.com

Theory should be taken as fact. This article is peer reviewed and it makes several such clear conclusions.

There are three scenarios offered, all of them operate on the conclusion that the virus was not manipulated or engineered, but arose from a zoonotic host.. Two of them assume introduction in the bushmeat market. What is unknown is whether it mutated in patient zero or if it mutated in another mammal host, such as a pangolin. We need patient zero for that, the CCP won't share that info.

Yes and I linked it again. It is a fine debate. Let's continue it. There are three hypotheses, two of them assume the conclusion that the bushmeat market facilitated introduction to humans. The third, still concludes that it was not a product of genetic manipulation or engineering but a laboratory release from a sample taken from a zoonotic host.

It WAS NOT a bio-weapon. The CCP is absolutely, 100% to blame.

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Hey man I can see this is important to you, however you and I have a different opinion on what constitutes gold standard scientific evidence. The link you gave is a letter to the editor, it’s very interesting but the author would be surprised if anyone was presenting this as peer reviewed research. You keep using the appeal to authority, Nature magazine, but misinterpret the letter which clearly states that the evidence shows poor compatibility with genetic engineering. It does not confirm your assertion but merely implies that it is credible. I have offered another possible explanation which fits with evidence in that it was quite possibly created with animal experimentation, no need for in vitro genetic manipulation when there is an in vivo option.
Homer’s lab?

abandonconflict said:

No such 100% conclusions ever really exist. The evidence is conclusive enough and we've known it for a very long time. We knew in 2007 that it was the bushmeat markets and that it would happen again there.

https://cmr.asm.org/content/cmr/20/4/660.full.pdf

^^Read the introduction on this link from 07^^

Here's the Nature article again:

The proximal origin of SARS-CoV-2 - Nature Medicine

www.nature.com

Theory should be taken as fact. This article is peer reviewed and it makes several such clear conclusions.

There are three scenarios offered, all of them operate on the conclusion that the virus was not manipulated or engineered, but arose from a zoonotic host.. Two of them assume introduction in the bushmeat market. What is unknown is whether it mutated in patient zero or if it mutated in another mammal host, such as a pangolin. We need patient zero for that, the CCP won't share that info.

Yes and I linked it again. It is a fine debate. Let's continue it. There are three hypotheses, two of them assume the conclusion that the bushmeat market facilitated introduction to humans. The third, still concludes that it was not a product of genetic manipulation or engineering but a laboratory release from a sample taken from a zoonotic host.

It WAS NOT a bio-weapon. The CCP is absolutely, 100% to blame.

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Why do you keep mentioning bio weapon when quoting me? Never said anything about a bio weapon or that the government was not to blame, Ive said numerous times I think they are. I’ve also said the response to it was faulty by all goverments. You were the one that said “debate over” and their findings were “conclusive”.... not hypothetical as they themselves admit.

zeddd said:

Hey man I can see this is important to you, however you and I have a different opinion on what constitutes gold standard scientific evidence. The link you gave is a letter to the editor, it’s very interesting but the author would be surprised if anyone was presenting this as peer reviewed research. You keep using the appeal to authority, Nature magazine, but misinterpret the letter which clearly states that the evidence shows poor compatibility with genetic engineering. It does not confirm your assertion but merely implies that this is credible. I have offered another possible explanation which fits with evidence in that it was quite possibly created with animal experimentation, no need for in vitro genetic manipulation when there is an in vivo option.
Homer’s lab?

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He seems to get quite emotional when questioned lol...... it would seem the debate is not over as requested lol.

Budley Doright said:

He seems to get quite emotional when questioned lol...... it would seem the debate is not over as requested lol.

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Emotional times, I’m happy to debate the point with ac as I fear China-blame is straight out of Trumps playbook and he is in no way a trump guy. Trump is a malignant narcissist at least so my concern is phase 2 of this crisis will be war against China. China flu, Wuhan flu, wet markets, sounds like the rumble of far away drummers, marching.

Budley Doright said:

He seems to get quite emotional when questioned lol...... it would seem the debate is not over as requested lol.

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Why do you wish so dearly for me to appear emotional over your post? I have posted two studies concluding clearly regarding the origin of the virus. Some parts of them speak of probabilities and hypotheticals, but only the clear conclusions have been cited as my premises. What I am saying here is that it was not a bio-weapon and that it was introduced to humans as a result of conditions that exist only due to the actions and policies of the CCP. You either agree with this or you don't. You're continually replying and bringing it up on multiple threads. See post #1205 on my other thread. "Umm not to argue with you but... It's not proven that it wasn't manipulated... I do agree it came from the wet market"

You're stuttering around and trying to plant a seed of doubt. Two studies were cited. The hypotheticals in those studies do not regard the clear conclusions, they regard one of the 3 ways to explain those very concise and definite conclusions.

It is not a bio-weapon. It was not manipulated or engineered. The evidence says so. The CCP buried the smoking gun. We have to make our verdict based on the available evidence and there is not a shred of evidence to support the notion that it was engineered or manipulated.

Emotion? I'm annoyed that I had to write this because I know you will fail to grasp it. Don't worry, you'll get over it.

zeddd said:

Hey man I can see this is important to you, however you and I have a different opinion on what constitutes gold standard scientific evidence. The link you gave is a letter to the editor, it’s very interesting but the author would be surprised if anyone was presenting this as peer reviewed research. You keep using the appeal to authority, Nature magazine, but misinterpret the letter which clearly states that the evidence shows poor compatibility with genetic engineering. It does not confirm your assertion but merely implies that it is credible. I have offered another possible explanation which fits with evidence in that it was quite possibly created with animal experimentation, no need for in vitro genetic manipulation when there is an in vivo option.
Homer’s lab?

Click to expand...

zeddd said:

Emotional times, I’m happy to debate the point with ac as I fear China-blame is straight out of Trumps playbook and he is in no way a trump guy. Trump is a malignant narcissist at least so my concern is phase 2 of this crisis will be war against China. China flu, Wuhan flu, wet markets, sounds like the rumble of far away drummers, marching.

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It does not get published in a scientific journal just because it was written to the editor. It is not just an appeal to authority. This is vetted research and a complex argument published in Nature. It makes very clear assertions. Those assertions form premises for my argument. However, one of the 3 hypothesis posited by the author that could explain those conclusions, is similar to what you seem to be suggesting. However, that still definitely places the blame upon the CCP. This is not an episode of the Trump show. He's just an idiot who happens to be president of another country.

Blaming the culpible is not a political position. Just because Trump hates China, doesn;t mean the CCP can do no wrong. Just because I accept that they are culpible, does not align me with Trump.

abandonconflict said:

It does not get published in a scientific journal just because it was written to the editor. It is not just an appeal to authority. This is vetted research and a complex argument published in Nature. It makes very clear assertions. Those assertions form premises for my argument. However, one of the 3 hypothesis posited by the author that could explain those conclusions, is similar to what you seem to be suggesting. However, that still definitely places the blame upon the CCP. This is not an episode of the Trump show. He's just an idiot who happens to be president of another country.

Blaming the culpible is not a political position. Just because Trump hates China, doesn;t mean the CCP can do no wrong. Just because I accept that they are culpible, does not align me with Trump.

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Yes I agree you are not aligned with Trump, although I don’t see how we can effectively ignore him when he’s potus. Blame is so serious in this case as it could lead to war, if the Chinese are culpable I need to see clearer evidence than we have to date. Wet markets are hideous but nuclear confrontation is worse, I’ve got 5 kids so perhaps a different perspective.

zeddd said:

Yes I agree you are not aligned with Trump, although I don’t see how we can effectively ignore him when he’s potus. Blame is so serious in this case as it could lead to war, if the Chinese are culpable I need to see clearer evidence than we have to date. Wet markets are hideous but nuclear confrontation is worse, I’ve got 5 kids so perhaps a different perspective.

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Nobody is talking about war or nuclear weapons. Threats should not even be part of the debate. That's like saying "oh, right, big ass guns, well of course it's not your fault then." Look, all the experts say it wasn't a bioweapon. Even the guy who keeps replying and seems to want to disagree but then doesn't and just says I have emotions, even he wants to distance himself from seeming like he thinks it was a bioweapon.

To move forward, that part of the debate needs to die

And it is dead. This was not a bio-weapon. It was a series of bad policies by the CCP that led to a pandemic (my argument, shared by many experts). Some countries handled it better (South Korea, Taiwan) than others (USA, Italy). Whether you worry about what the facts mean for the future or not, facts are facts and we need to reach them.

Step one, are we still debating whether or not this was a bio-weapon?

This thing barely broke past 100k confirmed cases a couple of weeks ago. Two months before that, people were mocking me for saying it was serious. I called it the CCP's fault then.

There are over 735k confirmed cases now.

abandonconflict said:

Nobody is talking about war or nuclear weapons. Threats should not even be part of the debate. That's like saying "oh, right, big ass guns, well of course it's not your fault then." Look, all the experts say it wasn't a bioweapon. Even the guy who keeps replying and seems to want to disagree but then doesn't and just says I have emotions, even he wants to distance himself from seeming like he thinks it was a bioweapon.

To move forward, that part of the debate needs to die

And it is dead. This was not a bio-weapon. It was a series of bad policies by the CCP that led to a pandemic (my argument, shared by many experts). Some countries handled it better (South Korea, Taiwan) than others (USA, Italy). Whether you worry about what the facts mean for the future or not, facts are facts and we need to reach them.

Step one, are we still debating whether or not this was a bio-weapon?

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Well normally I’d agree with you but if one considers that perhaps Trump is a narcissist it would be very difficult to make a case for laughing off the idea of retaliation.

I am not doubting at all and this is becoming somewhat ridicules. Conclusions and hypothesis are two different things btw. I agree with everything in the article and I also agree CCP is at fault for covering up the seriousness of this. I also blame every government and the WHO for failing to act quickly enough to contain it after the seriousness was apparent. My only problem with you is your complaining about misinformation by others yet you claimed that you were unequivocally right when in fact it was a hypothesis, not a conclusion, of which there is a huge difference. I apologize if your not upset, you seem to be lately, apparently I’m wrong. Its easy to misread emotion when interpreting written word.

Budley Doright said:

Conclusions and hypothesis are two different things btw.

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Correct. I'm actually aware of this.

AC

You can stick your head in the sand, but Trump, as the leader of the most dominant country on earth, influences each and everyones life...whether we like it or not.

Economic policy, Foreign policy fundamental changes to law and health care...you're absolutely naive to think otherwise.

Trump had the opportunity through war measures rules to enable him to "compel" companies to retool in an effort to ramp up production of much needed supplies to help in this war on Corona..Apparently, companies lobbied through Kushner, and Trump stalled...
We'll soon see how these decisions affect you and me despite your inclination to think Trump is a non event.

Everyone knows, at this point, we dont have the respirators needed...hence you have a Governor in Texas basically suggesting that old people should do their part and die for the sake of a strong economy and die.

MrToad69 said:

AC

You can stick your head in the sand, but Trump

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Is a fucking moron who has never really made anything better. All he does is fuck shit up. If you thought he would help anything, I have a tower to sell you in Nigeria. This is not an episode of the Trump show. He does not get all of my attention or rule my life. He is useless and inneffective and didn't even really win the election. He is exactly the kind of moron our adversaries want in the white house.

My head isn't in the fucking sand. I'm the guy who called shit right months before everyone else on this issue, right here on this site.

AC
No you the guy sitting as a passenger in a vehicle with the equivalent of a drunk guy at the wheel, driving rapidly down a winding road...All the while, saying to yourself...He doesn't influence my life.

Unfortunately, he does..Trust me, we're on the same page, but until he's out of power we've got the equivalent of Putin of the west runnin' the show...and very few will stand up to him due to fear...Careers have been ruined, because Trump has taken reality TV to the main stage.

Tell those who have opposed Trump and lost...it doesnt matter. Those are the very people we need, with courage and integrity to turn shit around.

abandonconflict said:

I'm the guy who called shit right months before everyone else on this issue, right here on this site.

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Prophets are not honored in their own land Abandon

To quote from the Bible, 'Now Jesus himself had pointed out that a prophet has no honour in his own country' (John 4:44). Christ also said 'no prophet is accepted in his home town' (Luke 4:16-30), and 'Only in his home town and in his own house is a prophet without honour' (Matt.

abandonconflict said:

This thing barely broke past 100k confirmed cases a couple of weeks ago. Two months before that, people were mocking me for saying it was serious. I called it the CCP's fault then.

There are over 735k confirmed cases now.

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dude, people are still mocking others for taking this serious. @Wattzzup , for example. Qanon and white supremacists are still going to pump out anti-science and anti-government propaganda and this is just one of them. Also, fuck you, anti-vaxxers.

Agree with that the preponderance of evidence says this is not a bio-weapon. People who want to say otherwise should produce evidence instead of talking and holding an impossibly high standard of "proof" as if that is necessary for others to provide. Also agree that China's government's inaction at first made the whole thing possible by letting wet markets exist and then made it worse by suppressing information as well as botching their own testing. There is also plenty of weight behind the argument that Trump made it even worse.

There is plenty of real blame to go around. No use in fault-collecting, though. But I think you aren't doing that, I think you are cause-collecting, which is the basis for improvement once this whole thing comes into control a year or two from now. The more direct threat to me is what Trump is doing and so he gets my attention. Chinese government might be more directly threatening to you, in the Philippines, so carry on.

Longer term, regarding China's government I've never been behind open trade with the same gang and their successors that slaughtered the people at Tienanmen Square not so long ago. It never made sense to me and still doesn't.

abandonconflict said:

This thing barely broke past 100k confirmed cases a couple of weeks ago. Two months before that, people were mocking me for saying it was serious. I called it the CCP's fault then.

There are over 735k confirmed cases now.

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Yes you were spot on, I remember some good info there into, for example, the base reproduction number, which, at that time, was around 2.2; (currently 3.5-4) an incubation perdiod of 1-2 weeks, plus a letality rate of "much more severe than flu, but less then SARS-1" - and just from the combination of these numbers one could already envision the days to come - esp. because the Chinese numbers at that time mounted and mounted even under lockdown.

I also reported some of what I could read in your thread to another grower-forum and got laughed about equally... and I told them, you will remember your infantile postings... now one of them already is severely incapacitated due to Covid-19 for the rest of his life.

This is when people don't understand what one is talking about... some do simply lack the education or insights into the danger of viruses. Heck, I work in the health sector but got collegues that are as dumb as to take antibiotics against the flu! Then they come back after 2 weeks and state how worse it was and that not even (self-administered) antibiotics did help them! /facepalm

abandonconflict said:

It's not just the coronavirus they foisted on the planet. The CCP is behind the endangerment of many species. More than two thirds of all fishing boats in the world are PRC. From ivory to shark fins to tigers, poachers everywhere are serving the PRC market and it's the powerful in that country who profit. It's the rich, not the average Chinese citizen who is no different from any other person. It's the CCP.

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Trump has been kicking the CCP teeth in for 3 years now. They are a huge threat to humanity. Hope for chinese citizens as well as citizens of the world, the CCP collapses. They are a sneak evil empire.